period correct colors

[withoutaname]

I'll preface with, I bought MANY yards of unbleached linen last month thinking I would be dying it and sewing the mantra before the end of May. My work schedule exploded, and there is no way I will be able to handle the process let alone not having a place to dye fabric in my apartment.

Here's where you come in!

I have dug through most of Capitan Twill posts and have not found a reference to correct color linen. I know blues, and browns would be safe bets but I would really like my mantua in the color of eggplant.

Is eggplant an acceptable color for GAoP?

(not sure how correct the scan color is)

If eggplant was not a correct color of GAoP, are there any darker hues of purple that would be?

An even better question, is there a link or post with a lot of fabric color info on it, I know I came across it at some time in the last year but I fail to find it this week.

[Kate Souris]

I did read somewhere that the Asians once used lichens to make a purple coloured dye. I also read that one could use mulberries and blackberries to make a deep purple dye, but those had to be used with a salt fixative to set the colour. Wouldn't want to be caught in the rain, then turn a lovely shade of purple because your fabric dye bled...

Here, maybe this will help: http://www.geocities.com/anne_liese_w/Dyei.../dyehistory.htm

Michael might be able to provide better insight than I can, but I have read into dying and fabric colors just a little so I could get a better understanding of what I could and could not use.

[michaelsbagley]

The easy answer to period colours is, that dyeing technology by the Pirate era had advanced enough that just about any non-neon could be made... The caveat to that is, many of the more interesting colours were rather expensive to produce, so it is more of a matter of what you are trying to portray...

If you are going for a more average impression, I would probably suggest staying away from purples.... But if you are going with an more upper class portrayal, I see no reason to not use purple.

I really don't know a lot about GAoP dyeing, I actually know more about Viking age colours and dyeing.

From my limited knowledge I believe the more common colours in the GAoP would be, brick red (not a true red or crimson), indigo (blue jean blue), any earth tones (browns, tans, beige's), etc. etc.

I'm sure a thorough glance back through the archives of Twill would show you many period images of various classes of people, it would be pretty easy to get a good feel for period colours that way.

About linen, traditionally linen does not take dye well. It is easy to dye linen with modern chemical dyes and get true colours, but in the period not so much... I would almost more recommend going with a silk for the outer layer if you are going to use a more brilliant colour.

Probably not a very good answer, but I hope it helps.

[Misson]

Ah, another tangentially related post by me on the topic of colours from John Keevil's excellent book, Medicine in the Navy, 1200-1770: Volume II -1649-1714. This may or may not be useful, but I have to post it.

"Regarding slops, the queen’s seamen could obtain on credit against their pay a grey jacket, red waistcoat and breeches, grey stocking and a leather-cap faced with red cotton, the predominant red being designed to conceal blood from wounds. But the fact that no uniformity existed in naval dress and that contemporary seamen were not associated with any characteristic rig proves that their credit was too restricted for them to draw extensively on the purser’s store. The majority were pressed men, who, as already noted were not allowed to buy slops for the first two months of their service and continued to wear their customary dress until it was reduced to rags. This might be a ‘dark coloured Wigg and blew Cloathes, speckled shirt and Handkerchief, white stockings’, the man in this case being a deserter from a merchantman. Only a free issue could have altered this, but although even [physician William] Cockburn referred to ‘the press’d Mens real Want of Clothes’, and in spite of the known association between their rags and contagious diseases, no such order was made because of the expenditure involved.” (Keevil, p. 278)

He cites as his source of this info, Edinburh Courant, September 22, 1708 and the second quote in there is from surgeon William Cockburn's book Sea Diseases; or a Treatise of their Nature, Causes and Cure..., 3rd edition (1736), p. 33.

[Quartermaster James]

What manner o' green would be period correct? Sage? Olive? Hunter?

[michaelsbagley]

Hey Quartermaster James,

Period correct greens... Anyone's guess... My guess which is pretty much stolen by me from many of the more knowledgable people that came before me here, is that any green that is NOT neon would be fine... With darker or brighter greens being most likely colours worn by the more affluent.

I took aquick look back through the archives, and this is what I have fouind image wise.

From Foxe's archives. This could be grey, or it could be a pale green... I'm usually pretty good with colours, but that images just plays fin tricks with my eyes.

Another one (again from Foxe's archive), this appears to be a common sailor, and looks to be a medium hunter green.

Link to image

I linked to the above image as it is huge, and I didn't want to flood the page. The guy seated in the lower right hand side of the picture is wearing what I would call a hunter green, and is what I would call a commoner or working class man. Also note, the person holding open the right side of the display cabinet, while wearing a brown outer coat, it has a tear in the sleeve, revealling what I would call an olive green garment (possibly a waistcoat?).

HJope this has helped answer your question to a point.

[Jack Roberts]

Hey Michael, you got a date for that painting? I'm guessing late, 1690's? The shoes are tied. I love the detail in the man's shirt collar. Imagine that, gathered all way around. MMmmm, Sorry for the hijack back to your regular thread.

[michaelsbagley]

Funny, I asked that exact same question when I first saw that image almots a year ago...

And the answer as kindly shared by Barmy John

Title: The Peepshow

Year: 1718

Artist: Willem van Mieris

Technique: Oil on panel

Dimensions: 57,1 x 48,2 cm

Object number: SK-A-4941

[Quartermaster James]

Thank ye both most kindly!

[Misson]

In regard to purples, I just came across something on that in the book, The Pirate Picture by Rayner Thrower.

"In the Narrow Seas, as northern European waters used to be called, trade was slow in starting... An interesting local tradition exists in the Quantocks (Somerset) that the whortleberries, which grow there such profusion, were wanted by the Phoenicians for the preparation of the renowned Tyrian purple dye. This dye was was normally obtained from murex trunculus, a shellfish of the Eastern Mediterranean. Still, there are suggestions that the mollusc became increasingly scarce as a result of the continuous demand for it, thus explaining the latter-day, albeit traditional, use of Somerset whortleberries from which an excellent purple dye can be prepared. To help this scarcity of murex trunculus a regular traffic was started c. B.C. 800 from the Levant to the Canary Islands to obtain special lichen for use in dyeing." (Thrower, p. 60-1)

So purples goes way back and apparently can be found in berries that sound as if they grew quite profusely in Southern England as long ago as 800 BC. At least that's how I understand it. So all you need now is some whortleberries. (They sound like something from a Harry Potter novel that would be used in Snape's class.)

Here's a link, although you can Google for yourself and likely find better info, I'm sure:

http://garden.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Whortleberry

As for pictures from the period...I am skeptical of openly accepting such. Paints fade, artists choose colours for reasons of harmony and what's cheapest or most available at the artistic paint emporium and similar issues arise. I'd be cautious, particularly in trusting the colours of artistic artifacts as in fact, being fact.

[Capt. Sterling]

Some green silks from the late 17th century... and keep in mind, like Mission stated with the paintings, these could have faded considerably. Also different fibers accept the dyes differently....

[michaelsbagley]

As for pictures from the period...I am skeptical of openly accepting such. Paints fade, artists choose colours for reasons of harmony and what's cheapest or most available at the artistic paint emporium and similar issues arise. I'd be cautious, particularly in trusting the colours of artistic artifacts as in fact, being fact.

Misson, great info on the purple, it does confirm that it was used. But the citation doesn't give much indication as to it's commonality or whether it was as I suggested an affectation of the wealthy or not.... Is there more there that might shed light on that?

As for trusting images, I've heard that argument before, and to a degree agree. One of the areas I see that argument most stongly used is for, is the French and Indian War era (about 30 to 40 years post period for us). The blue on French uniforms is a hotly debated topic. The limited archaeological evidence seems to support that indigo was used (producing a navy blue or dark denim blue), but the period art shows a more sedate almost faded medium blue (which might have been painted with a colour similar to indigo and faded over the years to the lighter blue?).

Also the pigments used in paints are often different than the pigments used in dyes, as dyes have to blend and hold into the fabric to work, and paint pigment just has to be suspended in the medium (usually oil). Many ground stones and soils that wouldn't be able to stain a white peice of cloth worked great for paint colourings.

On the other hand, completely discounting the pictoral evidence is a folly in the other direction. I have seen olive and other medium greens produced using primitive techniques (at various Dark Age re-enactments over the years). While the techniques of the GAoP would be much more refined than the methods I have seen used, to doubt for some reason that the colours became unavailable for some reason seems to be too far of a stretch.

Green dyes, from what I have seen are most commonly derived from plants, and usually common plants at that, so extinction of source would be unlikely. One green I have seen produced frequently through primitive methods, is a rather bright lime green. This colour was produced using the plant "Common Broom" and a copper mordant (dye bath brewed in a coppper vessel) in a nuetral water (distilled water). I have heard that going more alkaline (adding alum) can darken the green some, but have yet to witness that first hand. In case anyone is interested, common broom done with an iron mordant produces and almost true yellow.

P.S. Sterling, you were posting at almost the exact same moment that I was, so I didn't see those samples before I posted this.... Great pics!!!

[Capt. Sterling]

P.S. Sterling, you were posting at almost the exact same moment that I was, so I didn't see those samples before I posted this.... Great pics!!!

Thank you...always hunting....

[withoutaname]

In regard to purples, I just came across something on that in the book, The Pirate Picture by Rayner Thrower.

"In the Narrow Seas, as northern European waters used to be called, trade was slow in starting... An interesting local tradition exists in the Quantocks (Somerset) that the whortleberries, which grow there such profusion, were wanted by the Phoenicians for the preparation of the renowned Tyrian purple dye. This dye was was normally obtained from murex trunculus, a shellfish of the Eastern Mediterranean. Still, there are suggestions that the mollusc became increasingly scarce as a result of the continuous demand for it, thus explaining the latter-day, albeit traditional, use of Somerset whortleberries from which an excellent purple dye can be prepared. To help this scarcity of murex trunculus a regular traffic was started c. B.C. 800 from the Levant to the Canary Islands to obtain special lichen for use in dyeing." (Thrower, p. 60-1)

So purples goes way back and apparently can be found in berries that sound as if they grew quite profusely in Southern England as long ago as 800 BC. At least that's how I understand it. So all you need now is some whortleberries. (They sound like something from a Harry Potter novel that would be used in Snape's class.)

Here's a link, although you can Google for yourself and likely find better info, I'm sure:

http://garden.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Whortleberry

As for pictures from the period...I am skeptical of openly accepting such. Paints fade, artists choose colours for reasons of harmony and what's cheapest or most available at the artistic paint emporium and similar issues arise. I'd be cautious, particularly in trusting the colours of artistic artifacts as in fact, being fact.

Thanks Mission! And trust me I know about artist choosing paints due to harmony and costs. I spent 3 years in grad school for painting and it was the most expensive thing I have ever done!

I will look into the color Whortleberry produces, and keep the thread current when I learn anything.

[Misson]

Misson, great info on the purple, it does confirm that it was used. But the citation doesn't give much indication as to it's commonality or whether it was as I suggested an affectation of the wealthy or not.... Is there more there that might shed light on that?

Nope. I have reprinted everything of merit on purple (so far) from the book. Rayner didn't even give a reference for the info, so I can't cite anything. (I will say this for Rayner Thrower - this is one of the more scholarly works I have seen on piracy. While it does draw from the somewhat sensationalist and notably case-study constrained General History, it seems to draw more from historical period references. 'Tis a tad dry, though.

As for trusting images, I've heard that argument before, and to a degree agree. One of the areas I see that argument most stongly used is for, is the French and Indian War era (about 30 to 40 years post period for us). The blue on French uniforms is a hotly debated topic. The limited archaeological evidence seems to support that indigo was used (producing a navy blue or dark denim blue), but the period art shows a more sedate almost faded medium blue (which might have been painted with a colour similar to indigo and faded over the years to the lighter blue?).

Also the pigments used in paints are often different than the pigments used in dyes, as dyes have to blend and hold into the fabric to work, and paint pigment just has to be suspended in the medium (usually oil). Many ground stones and soils that wouldn't be able to stain a white peice of cloth worked great for paint colourings.

On the other hand, completely discounting the pictoral evidence is a folly in the other direction. I have seen olive and other medium greens produced using primitive techniques (at various Dark Age re-enactments over the years). While the techniques of the GAoP would be much more refined than the methods I have seen used, to doubt for some reason that the colours became unavailable for some reason seems to be too far of a stretch.

Oh, surely agreed. It was just something that occurred to me when someone was talking about earth tones. Eventually, all paints tend to fade to more earthy tones. I forget where I saw it, but there was some TV thing or another where they had (somehow) scientifically figured out using a computer how to show a painting as it would have been seen the day it was revealed to the public. The color differences, especially in regard to brightness, were marked. One might just as well question how the software was designed, however. (My guess would be that they keyed off whites, but what do I know?)

[Misson]

I have come across something in Rayner Thrower's book I wish to note. He has mistakenly identified Captain Misson as the pirate Mussin and suggested that he was a real pirate. So you may just want to get another confirmation on the whortleberry thing just to be safe. Not that everything in the book has to be wrong, but such glaring errors (with no references to back them up) always make me a bit more cautious of trusting an author.

[withoutaname]

well after a bit of research last night I came across the following pages:

http://ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads....t&Number=269963

http://www.spiritofvincennes.org/rendezvou...thing/cinfo.htm

http://www.norcrossws.org/norcross/Herb/dyebed.htm

The second link as a summary talks about the Spanish trade of longwood, a plant found in/around the Yucatan which yields Grey Lavender to Blue Purple. Maybe it was somewhat possible to get this dye- specifically if you were probably living within Spanish territory within the trade routes.

Some of the reading I have done, encourages me to use the longwood as a top dye over a madder (red) or indigo bath. http://pages.sbcglobal.net/gcarnegie/artic...rt1logwood.html

I am starting to think that this experiment may be impossible on a stove top with no wash tub available.

For anyone in need, here are 2 good places for dyes:

http://www.dharmatrading.com/

http://www.aurorasilk.com/natural_dyes/dyes/index.html

[michaelsbagley]

Aha...

I found this some months ago, posted it to a forum that has since been deleted, then couldn't find it again... And just found it today while going through my massive list of bookmarks...

Anyways, if you scroll down the page to about two thirds of the way down, there is a recipe dated to the late 17th century, that was translated into english in the early 18th century, for madder red dyes.

Madder Red Dye recipes

[Misson]

Ok, here's my last Dampier quote until I read some more of the book. He talks about red dye in his New Voyage Around the World, first published in 1697:

"The Body [of the red Mangrove] is not so big as that of the black Mangrove, but always grows out of many Roots about the Bigness of a Man's Leg, some bigger some less, which at about 6, 8, or 10 Foot above the Ground, join into one Trunk or Body, that seems to be supported by so many artificial Stakes... The Timber is hard and good for many uses. The Inside of the Bark is red, and it is used for tanning of Leather very much all over the West-Indies. " (Dampier, p. 46)

[Jack Roberts]

I'm going to resurrect this thread in order to keep the search for PC dye recipes. I have a rather ambitious project of dyeing linen (Bleached & Unbleached) and wool in period dye baths. Then age 3 swatches in the sun for different times. (Probably 1 month, 6 months and 1 year.) Put all this crap into a "swatch book" of sorts to have a reference for colors.

Point me in the right direction. I'll start reading.

I own and have read this book. The Craft of Natural Dyeing by Jenny Dean I'm just not sure how period the dye recipes are. I'm sure they are pretty close though, considering the whole book is devoted to using natural elements in the dye baths.

Also any word on dye "fixatives"? I've heard salt being used but in my experience (using Rit dyes) I have not seen it work effectively. (I'm aware of mordants and washes that can be used.)

Lastly if anyone has any suggestions on what else I might need to do or test, please speak up. I'm planning on starting this in the spring. I'll keep those posted in a new thread when I start. Thanks all!

[Jack Roberts]

One thing that I was thinking about would be ship inventories. Has anyone come across any that have dye stuffs listed?

Is there a site perhaps I might be able to search through old inventories?

As a side note, logwood seems to be popular so far. Can anyone back me up?

[Mission]

While this is a little OT, it is related so I'm going to put it in here. It's from the book The Voyages and Travels of Captain Nathaniel Uring (1928 reprint, first published in 1726). Uring is talking here about Santiago [which he refers to as St. Jago], the largest island of Cape Verde islands off the coast of West Africa which he visited in September of 1710.

"They have a small Manufactory of Cotton Cloth, which the Inhabitants imploy themselves in, and is generally white and blew striped, and very well liked by the Negroes on the Coast of Guinea for a Crown."

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Just saw the thread...

I have a purple justaucorp from grosgrain silk. Purple was an expensive color... historically, very expensive and often used by Royalty, Higher ranking clergy, and to some extent the ultra wealthy.

I looked for 100% silk grosgrain for about 14 months before I found any at all... and when I did, it was tomato red at $300 per meter or purple at $120 p/meter. You know how many meters goes into making a justaucorps?

*Gulp*

I lived in the UK for about 5 years (its where I found the material) and went to many castles, estates, museums there. I found VERY few period paintings of folks (men or women) that were dressed in shades of purple that weren't in the above categories.... but I did find a few. One that springs to mind was at an estate home in Bury St Edmunds.... it was a hugely significant religious town at the time,,,, but I found a pretty cool painting of one of the upper upper upper class gentlemen who wasn't a church official in an absolute gorgeous purple silk justaucorps.

So, if you use purple, and want to use it historically, I think proceeding with caution is advised. If I was going to make a mantua out of purple cloth, I would probably choose a silk material. Cause when you wear it, you are not so subtly claiming that you are one of the most wealthy people at the event. So, you can't really wear a $10,000 dress and mate it with $25 payless shoes, and a walmart handbag... if you get my meaning.

I couldn't take pictures in the museum house, but have found some other stuff relating to purple's use in the 18th century. I'll dig for it and post it here.... no promises though.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Gentleman of Fortune

[Jib]

I seem to recall watching "Battle Field Britain" a few years back and they mentioned that red was the least expensive dye at the time. They then stated this was the reason why the army choose red for uniforms.