Is Linene really Wool?

[MadL]

Ok, I am really upset right now seeing as I am now out $210 between two internet vendors and still have NO brown linen drop front knee breeches to put my buckles on.

Can someone PLEASE tell me what I am saying wrong when I state:

From: Jeff

To: (withheld...for the moment)

Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:55 PM

Subject: A pair of Breeches?

Hello,

I wasn't sure which e-mail to address so I have written to both of you.

I am seeking to have a pair of Drop Front breeches made, in linen with brass buttons and buckle tabs at the leg cuff. I am looking for one in a weathered brown, or if unavailable then a grey-brown or even a medium brown if possible. Do you think this is something you can make for me?

I did not fill out an order form as you did not have an option for stating brass buttons or the cuff tabs for breeches buckle on the legs and didn't want to create a 'false' order to cause any confusion.

Sincerely,

Jeff

(this is the Actual letter I have sent to inquire availability Before placing my order...er, orderS)

???

Seriously, what am I saying wrong that I am unable to get a pair of Brown Linen Drop Front Knee Breeches with tabs on the leg cuffs for a pair of 1 inch buckles??

In January I ordered this from one vendor and got a pair of brown linen breeches but with ALL button HOLES down both legs and a string lacing them up?? HOW does that fit a BUCKLE?

So they tell me I have to pay them for 'half a new purchase' and they will 'fix' that pair...??

Well, I tell them no thank you and I am now stuck with a pair of lace up leg breeches. So I turn to another vendor, I ask if they have BROWN LINEN, then send me an e-mail with a photo (a dark photo) and say "Here are the browns I have" nothing more, just "Here are the browns I have". Well, in a photo like that I can't tell that NONE of them are "LINEN" but I asked for "LINEN".

So, I tell them I will go for the mid shaded brown they showed, I even used their OWN order form on line selecting "LINEN" (I have my copy of ALL correspondence with Both these vendors, including their 'confirmation page').

Today I get the breeches; they are RUST RED and made of WOOL, but they do have the proper leg cuff tab to fix a buckle to...but they are RUST RED and WOOL???

Now in e-mail with them they tell me "I showed you what brown wools I had. I have never had any brown linen and you chose the middle brown".??!!?? They NEVER told me those photos where WOOL, I Never Asked what wools they have....WHY would they even take my order, WHY would they accept an order form from their own web site that is checked for 'LINEN' if they claim to have No Linen??

So, done ranting, now I need to recover my $130 and find out HOW to ask someone in this industry for a pair of BROWN LINEN DROP FRONT KNEE BREECHES with TABS to fit a pair of 1 inch BUCKLES?????

Any suggestions....??

and no, I will not name drop these vendors...unless they refuse in the end to Return My Money that they wrongfully took.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Can't you return the trousers for your money back?

I think you have been a victim of bad customer service. I would have thought that a vendor would try to correctly answer your questions. And a simple, "no, we don't have those", is an ok and honest answer.

I haven't the time to search myself for what you are looking for, but since it appears to be difficult to find, you may want to find a pattern for the breeches you want, buy the brown linen, and have a tailor make it to your measurements.

I am betting that you would get tailor made clothing for less than your investment so far.

I would start by finding out what the return process is for the wrong things you have bought. If you have done no more than try them on, you should be able to get your money back.

And I wouldn't be so quick to "protect" the vendor by not revealing their name. You could prevent the same mistake happening to someone else, or shame them into having better customer service.

gof

[Lady Seahawke]

true linen is NOT wool, it is made of flax/vegatable fibers.

for more information on what linen is go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linen

[Capt. Sterling]

If you are looking for tailoring services you might want to contact Mad Mary Diamond of the Archangel crewe... only thing is... she can provide the drop front, but is that what you really want as it isn't correct to the Golden Age of Pyracy time frame...Do you portray a later time frame?

[Matty Bottles]

and no, I will not name drop these vendors...unless they refuse in the end to Return My Money that they wrongfully took.

Why not? You don't owe them anything. They owe you.

[Mary Diamond]

Good Afternoon, MadL ~

I am sorry to hear of your troubles with these unnamed vendors.

Please let me know if there is any way I can be of service. I recommend you to my merchant threads (as listed below), if you have any questions as to the character of my business dealings.

Shoes & Boots!

Linen Shirts

Buttons! Reasonably Priced

YHS,

Mary Diamond

[MadL]

Question #1) Can't you return them for refund?

One would think now wouldn't you?

But when I asked them why they sent me wool when I specified linen they responded: "I sent you a photo of the brown Wool I have, I have no brown linen and have never had brown linen and you chose the middle brown wool"

Fact: in response to my above original inquiry they sent me a photo showing three shades of brown material stating: "Here are the browns I have. I also have a Herringbone wool that would look nice." (period)

I wrote back telling them I would like the middle brown (NO knowledge that All samples sent were 'wool' as there was NO statement saying so and NO statment saying "I have No brown linen). Had there been a statement of any reference that there was NO brown Linen then I would have bid them g'day and thanked them for their time to respond.

Further Fact: I Selected LINEN from their order form (and have copies to show that state "Linen" from their own form) and as directed put into the comment box:

"for my brown linen breeches I would like the extra option of Brass Buttons and Tabs to attach my cuff Buckles" - they never bothered to question why the order form states "Linen" if they in fact had No linen to honor the order....they just went with wool somehow 'assuming' I knew they had no brown linen.

In other words, they are trying to blame me for the mistake that I did not recognize their photo sample (and poor one at that) as being wool not linen.

Question #2) "I am betting that you would get tailor made clothing for less than your investment so far"

Actually I thought they 'are' tailors, even their name says they are 'tailors'. I sent them my measurements and they were to 'tailor' me a custom 'tailored' pair of breeches...

I would have gone with the nice lady who tailored me frock but she said she won't do linen breeches and insists on spandex waist with cotton and fake buttons on the legs with no buckles, but I don't want a pair of 'costume' pants like that. Ashame too for she did great work on my frock.

I could have gone with the one who made me waist coat, but again they only want to make elastic waist and do not offer an inner lining...again not a real sturdy nice pair like I am willing to pay a tailor to make.

Other then that I have not found a local maker yet willing to do what I want and that is why I turned to on-line reenactment merchants.

Question #3 'Why drop front?'

I am assuming you mean why not French button breeches?

As I have read, the Drop Front became popular between 1750 and early 1800s, apparently when waist coasts became shorter and began exposing the front pant area more and they wanted a 'more flater' look. Well that is one look I prefer for me folks have endowed me well down there and even a pair of modern slaks tend to bulge out, especially when I sit down...why last time I had a new pair of slacks and sat down in a restaurant the waitress walked by and Fainted, hitting the floor so hard it put a bump on her pretty little head!!

naw, really I prefer the look and wasn't that around Blackbeard's time? I like Blackbeard, he is friendlier then Jack Sparrow and makes me laugh more

Seeing as how I am not in any particular 'reenactment group' and my character's bio (still a work in progress) is a scoundrel who existed more around the end of the Golden Age, it seemed more fitting to go with Drop Front Knee Breeches. Plus the wenches, they says I have cute knees!

But I do a LOT of business over the Internet, it give access to people I would otherwise have never met in my life, and from my knowledge of Internet communication (I myself am a techie by trade and spent 5 years as a level 3 support rep for Earthlink before their big layoff and shipped operations overseas) I feel I am very detailed in trying to describe to people what I want....so why have now TWO vendors completely missed what I am asking for? or I am completely missing the mark somewhere???

:angry:

[Capt. Sterling]

Question #3 'Why drop front?'

I am assuming you mean why not French button breeches?

As I have read, the Drop Front became popular between 1750 and early 1800s, apparently when waist coasts became shorter and began exposing the front pant area more and they wanted a 'more flater' look. Well that is one look I prefer for me folks have endowed me well down there and even a pair of modern slaks tend to bulge out, especially when I sit down...why last time I had a new pair of slacks and sat down in a restaurant the waitress walked by and Fainted, hitting the floor so hard it put a bump on her pretty little head!!

naw, really I prefer the look and wasn't that around Blackbeard's time? I like Blackbeard, he is friendlier then Jack Sparrow and makes me laugh more

Seeing as how I am not in any particular 'reenactment group' and my character's bio (still a work in progress) is a scoundrel who existed more around the end of the Golden Age, it seemed more fitting to go with Drop Front Knee Breeches. Plus the wenches, they says I have cute knees!

But I do a LOT of business over the Internet, it give access to people I would otherwise have never met in my life, and from my knowledge of Internet communication (I myself am a techie by trade and spent 5 years as a level 3 support rep for Earthlink before their big layoff and shipped operations overseas) I feel I am very detailed in trying to describe to people what I want....so why have now TWO vendors completely missed what I am asking for? or I am completely missing the mark somewhere???

:angry:

Drop front or fall front breeches as compared to button fly, is well after Blackbeard's time and the Golden Age of Piracy. Blackbeard died in 1718.

If you aren't concerned about authenticity than, by all means, they certainly aren't a problem.

[MadL]

Mary Diamond, Aye! I have been keepin an eye on yer shoes as well as yer shirt. As I had hoped to be lookin at an extra shirt as well as shoes by now but it appears these scoundrels have left me coin less then adequate at this date in time and me still in need of a proper pair of breeches to complete me first set of threads.

Fer now I must settle fer the brown linen 'LACE' up pair (at least the material and color is ok) but still no place what t' mount me breech buckles nor to complete the entire character I wish t' portray.

At this time I do have a pair of custom fit boots on order, been since X-mas time so I expect them 'soon'... I had bad luck with 'off the shelf' costume boots as me feet are odd in size, width, and shape so again I chose to go with custom made to my measurements, even tennis and dress shoes give me grief and when I can get away with it I swap sizes when no one be looking. So if ye find yerself with one size 9 and one size 8.5 extra wide someday - yup, I tried those on befer ye!!

But I will be watch'n yer shoes and that shirt, soon I will be in want of a shirt of 'more dress' then my current as well as a good pair o' pirate'n shoes!!

:angry:

[MadL]

Drop front or fall front breeches as compared to button fly, is well after Blackbeard's time and the Golden Age of Piracy. Blackbeard died in 1718.

If you aren't concerned about authenticity than, by all means, they certainly aren't a problem.

Aye, but Blackbeard's oldest son would have only been 32 year of age come 1750 :angry:

...an who says Blackbeard be dead anyhow? Do ye have proof of this??

[Capt. Sterling]

Proof? but of course... I'll get it from Elvis the next time I see him... :angry:

[Lady Alyx]

MadL,

I am so sorry to hear of all your costume delima's. It is trully horrible that you have now gone through TWO vendors and still don't have a pair of breeches. Can you post photos here of the two that you got and we can't see if we can alter them for you? Geez it seems easy what you want done. Next time it is better to buy your material and send the vendor that material with sketches of what you want. In the past when I have gone to websites with ladies making grand ballroom and period dresses they usually want to consult and have patterns and measurements and sketches all decided before beginning a task. As far as how you want your fly that is up to you...period or not period it's all for fun anyways. Ladies of course love those bulging fronts..te heee! You can always send me an email to help you with costuming, I am a novice at costuming, I have been altering thrift shop clothes into costumes every since I was a kid. I will do some searches on breeches on the net and see what I find as well.

As I was looking around the web I found many sites offering drop front breeches...where you looking for another new pair or to repair your other two...

this vendor obviously knows about buckles as it is one of their options...

vendor webby

[MadL]

thankye Lady Alyx,

don't know that pics would do no good for 'fixing' a pair of Wool breeches that where supposed to be 'Linen'....??

As fer the first pair with no buttons, well, that pair was not 'custom' fit but ordered as an XL size, actually it fits rather snug then loose as I had hoped so for also that reason I did not want to risk 'paying' them even more money to try and alter the legs and end up making it even tighter.

As for am I still looking, Yes, however these last two vendors have left me short in the pocket and with March 1st already here I now must make auto and other monthly like bill payments before I can place any further orders....AND I must first recover my $130 from vendor #2 for I found that bait and switch action not at all acceptable (but just how much force can be placed upon someone clean across the continent.....but there are still ways)

:angry:

And yes, I too have done many searches for "Breeches" and other variations and yes there are Plenty of vendors, I wrote to several and narrowed it down to these two by things I had heard, their description of product, samples shown, and punctual response to my initial approach....I just can't figure out what the heck I said that can't be understood, especially since the last appears to be quit heavy into reenactment, though more of a Civil War era but still.....

[MadL]

Well, here is the vendor's response when I asked if they will make good on my order for "Linen" breeches or refund my money:

Jeff............You had asked in an e-mail what I had in a gray or brown fabric. I sent you a scan of one medium gray wool and three different brown wools from the light brown that I sent you to a brown herringbone. Then we talked on the phone and you said that you wanted the lighter color brown. I did not then nor do I now have any brown linen. After having sent the scans of fabric on hand and our phone conversation, what would you have had me do? ................(name withheld...for now)

Now I have edited my first post to include the Entire e-mail I had sent them to include time stamp and all just as it appears from my Sent Folder. I clearly asked if they could do "Linen" and not any other. Yet they want to say I stated "fabric".

Now I do not still have the e-mail they replied to me with the sample they mention above as I retrieved it from work via a webmail service, and I did not think there would be any need to maintain such a detailed paper trail of this transaction, they seemed like upright people with good reputations. But their response to me ONLY stated; "Here are the browns I have"

Their response was very breif with no details and no mention of my request for buckle tabs nor how to add brass buttons as indicated on their site so I wrote back again asking how to get the buttons and tabs and they simply responded that I should add them into the 'comments' at the end of the order process, which I did, once again checking off "Linen" in the order form.

The phone call they mention is the following day when I called to verify the order was received and the buttons and tabs where acknowledged and the only thing they told me was "Yes, but your credit card is missing some numbers" so I gave them the remaining numbers - there was NO mention that they had NO Brown Linen nor that the photo they sent me was of Wool not Linen....

Here is the Order Confirmation their own web site returned me:

ID Title Option Quantity Price Total

58 Drop-front or French Fly

BR124 Linen, cotton lined w pewter buttons 1 $120.00 $120

Total price: $120

Grand Total: $120

(total they actually charged was $133 and some change due to the option of brass buttons not shown here - incodently, their price for Wool is LESS then linen....)

Anyway, I will give them until some time next week to comply to my request for refund or offer an exchange for 'Linen' breeches as that would be only 'proper piracy' conduct, after that I will post who they are for those here who asked...and then I will have to take other action as well to collect my money (all legal of course)

[LadyBarbossa]

alas, MadL.... the quota of business nowadays is "Quantity over quality".

aye, they need to refund ye, send back the pairs. No, granted ye'll have a fight on yo'r hands if they don't comply easily.

Otherwise, just round us all up and we'll go hunting after these people all piratical style.

I'm sure someone out there 'll be able to supply ye with the proper pair ye desire.

~Lady B

[MadL]

Ahrrr, well the scalawags finally looked back at their own sent e-mails and realized that they did not in fact state the photo sent for "available browns' where wool and not linen, fer they say "It was obvious".

Well, with that they will give a refund upon return of the woolen breeches, so once me loot has been recovered I will be again on the hunt for Brown LINEN breeches....

Now, what can we be learnin from this?

1) If ye be a newbie then perhaps it best t' git, In Writing, exactly, t' the letter, what will be made, any options, materials, etc - T' The Letter.

Then submit payment.

2) If ye be a merchant, Do NOT 'Assume' that the shopper knows as much bout yer craft as ye, Do NOT 'Assume' that a scanned photo on yer monitor be lookin the same on the shopper's monitor.

I wish I had the photo still t' share but on my monitor, which be calibrated with PhotoShop as I do lots of work in PhotoShop and other imagery programs, was rather dark, so dark the top material sample (like a stack of folded towels) looked almost black. Now that same photo viewed upon an older monitor where settings had been cranked up to compensate may have looked nice and vibrant, or on another computer with a different type monitor could look different still.

I have sent the same photo to different people and I get different responses back quite frequent; me biker friend in Indiana complain it be "too dark t' see" whilst me brother in Washington complain "Dude, why is it so bright and washed out? Fix your monitor", and again me web designer friend in Canada says "Looks nice sweety"....same picture

Now, with all that said, I must say that the workmanship of the breeches where indeed very nice, so much so I hated to send them back, but the reddish wool did not look right at'll when held up with the rest of what I already have so I just could not see spendin $133 on something twas not even what I ordered if it was not going to be even a good compromise.

I hate doin it to the lad fer despite the initial disagreeables they seem like a nice lot.

- end of story -

*or is it......

[Lady Alyx]

...are yea still looking for another pair o breeches?

[MadL]

...are yea still looking for another pair o breeches?

Aye, I be. But have t' wait till the funds returned t' the bank else I be spread too thin....never overdrew befer and don't want to now. At least I have the brown linen lace up leg ones if need be for ta cover me bums while I seek.

bloody 'lace up legs', how does one get 'lace up' out o' "Buckle"??

[Lady Alyx]

They plainly look at the $ not the customer. For something that custom they should have paid for attention to what the customer wanted and asked for confirmation of details before they made the pants..or they just shipped off the shelf items and said to heck with it, they'll just have to deal. I would suggest next time you send along a seperate letter explaining to the T exactly the alteration or specification you expect and not have that on the order form, where they might not catch it.

[MadL]

They plainly look at the $ not the customer. For something that custom they should have paid for attention to what the customer wanted and asked for confirmation of details before they made the pants..or they just shipped off the shelf items and said to heck with it, they'll just have to deal. I would suggest next time you send along a seperate letter explaining to the T exactly the alteration or specification you expect and not have that on the order form, where they might not catch it.

Actually it was explained in detail:

- first I browsed the online catalog.

- Then I sent an e-mail asking if they could accommodate my choice of material and color (see first post)

- In my e-mail I also asked if they would do the buckle tab and specified "for a 1inch buckle.

- Then they sent a photo with text that simple said "Here is the brown I have"

- I picked the middle color brown, and asked how to specify the brass button option (posted on their website) and the tab for the buckle.

- The responded saying that I simply need to add that to the comment box at the end of checkout.

- The order form also had fill-in boxes for various measurements, I filled all those in.

As can be seen in their Order Confirmation above none of the measurements from their little fill-in boxes nor the 'comments' box of the order process got repeated in the Order Confirmation, this is why I called them on the phone the very next day to ensure they got my 'special requests' for Brass Buttons and Buckle Tab. They confirmed...but there was NO mention of "wool" in Any of our conversations either via e-mail nor during the phone call. Now it was only the material that was wrong, they got the brass buttons and buckle tabs correct, the color brown, rather 'rust red' I would have swallowed had they not switched material. The fit looked all proper (but I never put them on once I saw 'wool').

The odd part is that the receipt in the box said "Wool lined breeches with brass buckles".....but the order placed, inquiries mad prior to placing all specify 'Linen'. One of their correspondence with my during my complaint process they said "I didn't have then nor do I have now any brown linen"....???? Then why did they respond? Why did they send a photo and not state 'this is brown but Not linen'. Their defense to that was "Well it should have been obvious".....perhaps to the tailor, perhaps to the photographer....but to the non-tailor purchaser who asked for "Linen" and never having 'seen' the material in question? To the obvserver who is viewing a darkened photo of the corner of a stack of matterial about 4inch x 5inch in size on a computer monitor and 'expecting' to be viewing Linen...? I think not...actually I KNOW, 'not'. There is a lot of matterial that even in person I can't tell you what it is, I Do Not 'make' clothing, I never took Home Ec in school, I played football, soccer, wrestling, and shop in school, then after school I played with guns and machine guns and 50 caliber machine guns and grenades and 70mm demolition cannons. The only 'material' I am familiar with is the Zero-P nylon of my parachute...and even 'that' could be silk for all I know, I just know that when its new it is slick and harder then hell to fold up and get into that damn little pack on my back!! But I can make a mean Mountain Man Trout Sufflette, and I make the best BarB-Q rattlesnake steaks in town....actually I think I make the Only BarB-Q rattlesnake steaks in town...

And as for that 'Home Ec', if I cant toss it on an open flame then it aint cookable! If I can't use a staple gun or glue gun on it then it aint gonna hold together!

[Lady Alyx]

wow...still sorry that you had to go through all those pains...perhaps you can trade them with a vendor at a Faire? Just a thought....

[MadL]

wow...still sorry that you had to go through all those pains...perhaps you can trade them with a vendor at a Faire? Just a thought....

No need now, they finally found their own message to me and have admitted to not telling me the sample fabric they offered me to pick from was wool (as stated, 'they' thought it would be obvious), and have offered to refund my money to I may seek the pair I was shopping for. I do of course have to wait until they recieve the breeches back then they are to refund me cash...which should be today as per UPS, I will have to check when I get home, however the funds transfer will most likely take till next week.

Don't know that I will have many opportunity to 'trade' this summer as looking at the calendar there only seems a few weekend faires available in California. I already had to pass on the Arizona faire last week due to the coast o' ship fuel - Blast! the price of wind fer me sails is gettin expensive these days!!!