Street Gangs vs Pirates

[JohnnyTarr]

Ok you all, you do know the reality behind pirates. Now I am asking what if any difference there is between Street gangs and Pirates. And the first one that points out that gangs are not on the water will be strung up from the yard arm.

[Matty Bottles]

Well, as far as I know, street gangs tend to prefer a high local visibility, even when they aren't committing crimes, whereas pirates have used subterfuge as well as terror to establish an advantage.

However, my knowledge of street gangs is entirely informed from Death Wish and its sequels, so that may not be an accurate statement.

[Red-Handed Jill]

Having grown up in a neighborhood with three street gangs, I can tell you that they tend to be territorial (certain parts of the neighborhoods "belonging" to them, so to speak) and they spend a lot of time and effort fighting each other. I remember in the early 70's there was a HUGE gang war in my neighborhood; all three gangs were involved, although two of them had banded together to fight the third gang who was trying to invade their territory.

[JohnnyTarr]

So they are more territorial and fight each other more than pirates did? Do we have any info on whether or not pirates attacked each other at sea?

[Red Cat Jenny]

I would think Pirates saw anything valuable as fair game.. moreso if the odds were good.

Differences,

From what I know or have read, gangs hold initiations for every member, recruit down through families, carve out specific territories and members sometimes join in order to be able to socialize even though they might not really want to participate.

Also gangs don't have cool hats..

[PyratePhil]

Like Jill, I grew up with gangs all around - in my case, New York.

Similarities - they usually have a Code; good with weapons; enjoy plunder and booty ; attack in group formation, never singly; have a "home port"; use of illegal substances for relaxation; careening (think Chevy Impala up on jack-stands); high mortality rate.

Differences - as Jenny said - the hats. A backward ball cap just doesn't have the same flair...street gangs tend to "play" in a narrowly-defined territory; usually have an obsession with "colors"; women are often brought along on raids.

[JohnnyTarr]

So would it be wrong to say that the modern day gang is todays pirate of the past?

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

There are too many variables here. First, you have to nail down what the gangs main interest is. Things change with the eras, so if it's a drug gang, the difference is obvious, but if it's a gang that thievery is their main point of interest, the differences are moot. A girl gang... well.. A gay gang... You get the point.

Bo

[Matty Bottles]

Also, I'm pretty sure that pirates never encountered the wrath of architect-turned-vigilante Paul Kersey.

[Lady Alyx]

Did pirates do graffitti? LOL...perhaps on jail walls or tavern tables...lol. Long John was here...lol I think the nature of the gangs being 'landlocked' is a big consideration here...the pirates could sail away after an exploit, but the gangbangers just crawl back into their wretched holes.

[Iron Jon]

In my opinion, I think that if you were to compare pirates from the GAOP to earlier American gangs, such as those depicted in Scorsese's 'Gangs of New York' there wouldn't be a real big difference (other than the "on the water" issue). If the movie has any real historical accuracy there are actually a few similarities.

Like pirates, the gangs in the movie stole from whoever they could, and they used their strength in numbers and notoriety to terrorize the local inhabitants and carry on their trade with immunity.

The gangs paid a tribute, a portion of their take, to the leader of the gang, and they paid off the authorities to more or less look the other way. Pirates and privateers paid a greater share of their plunder to the Captain and some even paid a portion back to their sponsoring countries and Kings.

The gangs were waging a territorial war between the Native faction (those born in America who were mostly Protestant) and the predominantly Irish immigrants (who were Catholic). This is somewhat similar to the situation in the New World of the 1600's where the English, Dutch, French, and others were trying to gain a foothold in the Spanish (Catholic) controlled areas and would fight and steal from them whenever possible.

[Matty Bottles]

Also, they both get totally owned by cannon shot.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

I'd like to take a moment to point out a diffrence that no one has mentioned.

Not that I overly-romanticise about the motivations, ect, of pirates, but know what I do of the time period, an assumption I have made is that many turned to piracy out of an almost necssity. Sign on with a pirate crew or starve/be gangpressed/suffer from indenturtude or slavery. Same kind of deal as why women have turned to prostitution - do what you have to for survival. Again, not to say that there wern't some scumbag bastardy pirates that were inherintly violent and cruel . . . but when faced with the choice of starvation, servitude and abuse, who wouldn't choose a life of freedom and survival? Seems logical.

Modern day gangs on the other hand - I see no point. There's no need for "Survival". Need money? go sign on with an employment agency - hell, get welfare! Need food? Again, welfare, food stamps, food banks, become a shop lifter in a grocery store even ( ). Abuse and violence? Go to a shelter, move, go to the police. . .

Now I realise that this really isn't exploring all the socio-political sides to the whole argument, and is really just a generalisation from a suburbanite who's experience with gangs is limited to reading the Godfather and seeing parts of West Side Story . . . but that is what pops into my head when comparing the two

[Misson]

You can set aside the water thing if you like, but it's inherent in the legal definition of piracy.

PIRACY (BY U.S. CITIZEN) - Whoever, being a citizen of the U.S., commits any murder or robbery, or any act of hostility against the U.S., or against any citizen thereof, on the high seas, under color of any commission from any foreign prince, or state, or on pretense of authority from any person, is a pirate, and shall be imprisoned for life. 18 USC

(I recall getting into a drawn out discussion with someone who didn't think piracy should have to take place in international waters (the high seas), but, alas, it is part of the definition. Piracy in national waters (the low seas?) is simply classified as theft.)

And that's the main difference.

I also suspect that the motivation for freedom from various things (servitude and whatnot) is vastly overstated because of our (Western) fascination with it. We find what we look for. From my reading, most pirates who chose to turn pirate did so because it was convenient to their situation and few other options presented themselves. (Which may in some ways be similar to the reasons for joining a gang - see below.) I forget which pirate it is (Kidd?) but he basically turned pirate because being a privateer wasn't working very well for him - they couldn't find any ships to take. (A letter of marque is a pretty puny thing against a ship full of bored sailors.) Sailors expected a certain amount of servitude and difficult conditions - the BRN and pirate crews had a lot more in common than is generally recognized. Ask Ed Foxe. I think it was he who pointed out to me that the conditions on a pirate ship were not really all that different from those on a BRN vessel - the movie versions notwithstanding.

The primary motivation for gangs, according to psychologists, is need for belonging to a group unified around a common purpose. FWIW.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Another point is that the "gang life" is considered to be just that; for life. Getting out of "the life" in general is difficult, and it would be even more difficult to change from one gang to another.

Pirates often signed onto a crew for a single cruise, or for cruises lasting until a certain monetary amount of loot is taken (at least if the surviving copies of Ship's Articles were more or less representatives of other sets of articles) before retiring (rarely) or signing onto another crew. This, of course, may not include those pressed into service...

[Rumba Rue]

pirates didn't go around with spray paint and graffiti everything....

[Matty Bottles]

pirates didn't go around with spray paint and graffiti everything....

Those aren't necessarily gangs.

[Rumba Rue]

well here in S. Calif. they are....

[Matty Bottles]

You guys don't have independent taggers?