Female minimum garb standards

[Salty]

Ok as suggested this is meant to discourse on teh minimum grab standards for females...........so again for those that know more then i in this subject......

.fer the lasses of the pub would this suffice? for said bare bones basic outfit

chemise

petticoat

mantua

stays

stocking

shoes

cap , neckerchief, and apron

ye ship's potter,

Salty

[Red Sea Trade]

Here's a great resource, an 18th century engraving of English street vendors. Lots of good visual information on lower class dress.

http://www.jasa.net.au/images/streetvendors.gif

The women appear to be wearing broad-brimmed, low-crowned hats (either straw or felt) almost certainly worn over caps. You will see the same sort of hat in engravings by William Hogarth. It is a logical style for women who spend lots of time out of doors-- light, comfortable and good shelter from the weather.

No sun-burned, peeling noses for me!

[Salty]

aye i have a somewhat floppy straw hat, would that suffice?

[Hester]

The women appear to be wearing broad-brimmed, low-crowned hats (either straw or felt) almost certainly worn over caps. You will see the same sort of hat in engravings by William Hogarth. It is a logical style for women who spend lots of time out of doors-- light, comfortable and good shelter from the weather.

No sun-burned, peeling noses for me!

Terrif! Thanks, RST.

I spend my entire summer in a broad-brimmed straw hat anyhow.

And I intend to wear it to the Pirate Festival at Fort York this weekend. (Although my "garb" won't be anywhere near authentic. The hat will be decorated with an Alexander-McQueen-knock-off pirate-skull scarf. And I plan to wear my black tiered peasant skirt, a t-shirt with a silk-screened silhouette of a pirate ship, and sport sandals. And the same garb will have to do me for an English Country Dance in High Park later that evening.)

[Red Sea Trade]

Here are a couple of closer views of womens' hats, both from Hogarth.

http://www.berksfhs.org.uk/journal/Dec2003...ess_500x439.jpg

http://www.peterwestern.f9.co.uk/hogarth/hogarth32.jpg

Broad and floppy seem to be the key features. I know that my fine wife, who is as pale as a dish of cream, wears the biggest, broadest, lightest-colored straw hat she can decently get away with. No decoration but a colored ribbon, but she likes to keep it simple.

After about 1750 it became stylish to cock up the rear of the hat. It looks pretty snappy, but--alas--too late for our era.

[Silkie McDonough]

Correct me if I am wrong ...

I don't think a mantua is mandatory. There are other jackets that can be worn. One could also wear a jump or a bodice but would need to make sure they have a modesty scarf ...or am I going too far into the future?

[AnnaMarie]

hey all I would say everything listed so far is good for mimum garb but don't forget the bonnet to be worn under the hat!

Also i think perhaps stays might be a bit more optional only for the fact that they are expensive and not entirely noticable.

Also it is always good to give examples i will include a picture of a camp of mixed men and Women from a re-enactment. we represented the H.M.S. Supurbe that sacked Louisburg in the first battle of Louisburg. this will give you an idea as most of these women are not re-enactors and hat to throw together and borrow to get the minimum garb standards required.

Also for those looking for a bit more jaunty pirate lass sort of look, make your betticoats out of the stipred sail ticking that men often used for their slops, use a tricorn which women of the period did wear but where not as common as prettier straw hats. Also I found an engraving which I am using for my idea of a new pirate garb and will have to dig up and post here of a pirate woman that was wearing her petticoats but had them hiked up a bit wench like over a pair of mens slops. besides this she was dressed in normal womans clothing.

it is important to remeber that even though there is few records of women on board ships, both pirate and non pirate that all of the woman other than those trying to pass themselves off as men, Wore the normal womans clothes of the period. Even the sacred Anne bonney and such after being found to be female began to wear her womans dresses and petticoats on board ship and only changed to mens clothes during combat.

SO as a woman to represent an accurate female pirate you need to dress completely and fully in mens garb as if prepared for battle, or where the womans fasion of the time. Other than the one wood cut with the slops under petticoats I have found little record of a mixture in styles.

Also please do nto make the mistake that so many women do of wearing your chimese top with nothing over it or your stays, these are your underwear and although nice would never, and I mean never have been seen outside of intamacy.

[Iron Bess]

BOOM BOOM ROOM!!!!

ROTDLMBAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very good!!!!!

[Ransom]

Well, in the catagory of women dressing like men, I guess I pulled it off pretty well in Port Washington, since when looking at a photo of the group, Silkie thought I was a male - although a slightly feminine looking one. That's how she guessed it might be me, since she had no idea what I looked like, and my name was listed as one of the players in the photo.

Think I'll stick with that, and stay away from stays & petticoats.

[Capt. Sterling]

Correct me if I am wrong ...

I don't think a mantua is mandatory. There are other jackets that can be worn. One could also wear a jump or a bodice but would need to make sure they have a modesty scarf ...or am I going too far into the future?

Jumps could do around camp or perhaps if you are "at home" but I think a mantua would be more common for walking about town .... check with Kass. As to stays, they should be on the basic dress list as there are few reasons NOT to wear them... except maybe with jumps... it seems everyone had and wore them except maybe the poorest of the poor as there is ONE picture showing a woman without

[Capt. Sterling]

Also i think perhaps stays might be a bit more optional only for the fact that they are expensive and not entirely noticable.

No offense but I would have to totally disagree here. Stays are VERY noticeable, especially when they are missing... not wearing the proper foundation garments very rapidly ruins otherwise period correct clothing.... Stays are far easier to make then many women believe and are crucial for getting the proper look.

[Black Syren]

Stays are far easier to make then many women believe and are crucial for getting the proper look.

Then they do not have me making them..Trust me I have learned or made up more new words than a Lady should know...Im getting ready to toss them outside...

[AnnaMarie]

Well I still believe in speaking of the minimum nessecary things to own Stays are still a lot less of a priority in comparison to any of the visible things one may need.

Granted I myself am a girl with good posture and am very thin. I ofte wear a very good and support bra and have not once had anyone notice my lack of stays, in fact many of the women at most reenactments are shocked to find I am not wearing them when they ask how I can be still so happy at the end of the day and not ready and willing to rip them off once the public is gone. Now perhaps I am lucky in the figure department, but I find that a good support bra and posture will get the effect needed as long as your of at least average body weight.

Stays are a pain to make, require a lot of time and sewing, and are not something I would suggest for most begginers at sewing.

Now yes I agree if your going to be doing this for some time and have the money to invest stays are a definate must. But until that comes to be and if your scrambling to try and put together as authentic outfit as you can stays are going to be the most expensive, and hardest to come by piece. Petticoats even the most basic sewing ability and about an hours worth of time will have ya set with one. Although ladies bare minumum always wear at least 2 petticoats over your chemise.

If your going to turn women away for not wearing stays though you might as well turn men away for wearing underwear and not pulling their shirts up and around them, oh and the same for women. For minumum though If you want anyone to be able to afford it on a low budget stays will be out of many peoples league.

Personally I have spent this entire season without stays, but I have a very proper excuse now, I am pregnant and well i think we can all see why for that, although Petticoats do wonders for hiding a pregnancy I must say.

[Capt. Sterling]

Stays are a pain to make, require a lot of time and sewing, and are not something I would suggest for most begginers at sewing.

Again that is where we differ.... I still believe most women go into the project with the mindset that stays are extremely hard to construct when, with proper directions, they really aren't... time consuming... not really... six hours from start to finish, if you sew the channels by machine, about twelve for entirely hand sewn... and I bet Kass can beat that time!

and again, if this thread is like the men's authentic basics, sorry stays are pretty much a must unless you are wearing jumps... for GAoP time frame... if you want to do Hollywood/fantasy pirates then it really doesn't matter at all. Like shoes, a good pair of stays will last you a long time if properly cared for and so, well worth the investment if you want to be pc.

[Capt. Sterling]

If your going to turn women away for not wearing stays though you might as well turn men away for wearing underwear and not pulling their shirts up and around them, oh and the same for women. For minumum though If you want anyone to be able to afford it on a low budget stays will be out of many peoples league.

Sailors could have worn drawers as they were listed within the slops contracts... so not everyone wore nothing but their shirt between their legs...

[AnnaMarie]

I am not arguing with you that stays aren't imprtant or nessecary but I was under the impression the threads for both men and women are about the basic things that very begginners can make or get on a very limited budget and get away with fitting in as PC. I don't think we are talking about full kit building I thought and I can be wrong on this was the best, easiest way to get people who have never been accurate before.

So yes shoes are needed, stays are needed, but if you have one month and 60 dollars what can you get, and what can you fake to make your outfit visibly as accurate as can be. Yes someone who is planning on doing this as a hobby will need to get more and spend more, but I was thinking this was for people who are daunted by cost, and what to dabble and try out before coming into their own. Stays are not a project I would suggest for someone who has never made even a simple project before. He wanted a list to give someone that was going to an event for that one event of what they need to get to fit in.

You yourself give your group a year to get kitted out. this is not about getting kitted out this is about what is acceptable as a minimum standard for getting started. If we expected every person to shell out the cash or time to make every piece of garment we would find a lot less re-enactors.

We need to help others get to a level of accuracy before we demand full authenticity.

believe me i am someone that gets annoyed when i go to re-enactment to find out that the red coats are fighting ren faire style pirates. Talk about misleading the public. But there has to be a medium ground met as well. Threadcounts and dye ingredients can come in time.

[Capt. Sterling]

I totally agree with you here, and no I am not arguing just to argue, I am simply disagreeing about the stays... in my opinion for someone who wants to start out in the hobby and continue, stays are still a basic to me... if we are talking about someone that only wants to dress up once or twice and has no intentions of sticking with it... then certainly, don't waste your cash or time on stays... but if you do plan on making a go of it, get your stays in line and quickly as other pieces of your wardrobe may need to be fitted OVER them...

Kass has patterns for stays that beginners can follow and she is always willing to give extra advice on preparing them. If you join a group where someone in it can make the stays for you... all the better.... our group, each person specializes in making something from clothing to weapons to boats... all our newbie needs to do is purchase the materials and give a small fee of twenty dollars to say thanks to the person who helped them out.

Again, in my opinion stays should be on the basic female list...

[Salty]

i menat nae to start any arguments with this, it was suggested to start a thread for female garb and so i choose to do so.

the list i posted was what i have gleaned from my time here, a few friends, and what little i know of the time pireod. it was by no means complete but the set that i thought to make in what limited time i have before pip.

if it helps anyone else then all the better as well, to learn one must teach and so continure

ye ships potter

salty

[Capt. Sterling]

Kass

Can't get much better than this for the basics... this Lady really knows her stuff...

[William Brand]

Has anyone mentioned elegance? It isn't a word we often use today, I know, but I have seen a few re-enactors in my time that had the 'poise' of the period.

[Rats]

Well said William!!

Especially without appearing to "be putting on airs"!

R

[William Brand]

Aye...more of what the French refer to as a certain I don't know what. That special something that sets a person apart, not because it actually elevates or removes them. They just have a certain something. They just ARE.

I've also known the opposite. I've met those few people who have the finest costuming I've ever seen, but who have no more presence than a turnip.

[Calico Jack]

this Lady really knows her stuff...

She does, 'though as these threads are looking for bare minimum standards for involvement [so as not to drive off those new to the hobby with large investments], and as women's clothes have much more involved than do men's clothes, requiring new folks to shell out 12 per yard for linen rather than 3 per yard for a linen/cotton blend might not make it the most accessible.

The stays concern is the most valid - a lack of stays beneath your clothes [which is, after all, where stays belong in an historical costume] is noticable. Stays are, however, not the simplest of projects, nor something that can be knocked up in a couple of hours for those first looking into shifting into Period Correct events.

Ladies - has anyone here found a good way to simulate stays? Is it possible to pull a good "fake" on stays, since they will be under clothes? Consider it similar to using machine stitching on inside seams, to save time and effort. Since only the effect of the seams is visible, and not the seams themselves, most will accept such a "fake." So how about with stays? How can they be "faked" so as to not require an advanced bit of tailoring effort, or large sums of money?

[Edit the first: As for poise, it is true that poise is free, but it is also true that not all folks of period are ladies or gentlemen - some are even lower class. That said, lower class in 1729 is not the same as lower class today. Mannerisms change, and that I think is the intent of the je ne sais quoi. Figure out the mannerisms of your period, and use 'em as you can. They are free, and add lots of authenticity to even the minimum standards of garb.]

[Edit the second: By the way, thanks Hand for starting these discussions. Folks must be interested - they even get debate going! That's a sure sign of interest.]

[Capt. Sterling]

And once again the importance of including proper stays... during the GAoP time frame, stays are often seen in the front opening of the mantua...not all of them laced closed in the front, the gown often being pinned to the side of the stays and a stomacher is not always worn ... so once again, in my opinion, proper stays should be included in the basic kit...

"It must be remembered that between 1720-1740 the robe battante was the fashion in France; this long, loose robe was frequently worn open and showed the stays beneath, which consequently were of as much importance as the dress itself."

Norah Waugh, Corsets and Crinolines

[Cheeky Actress]

I'm putting in my two-cents...for what it is worth.

I just completed my first set of stays over a month ago. Was I apprehensive about doing stays? Hell Ya! But I also understood that without the right underpinnings, the over all ‘look’ of my clothing would not lay correctly.

I did a simple set of stays out of left over wool from my mantua, only did two layers – that would be the lining and the fashion fabric, added a wooden busk and boned it using a sewing machine to make the channels. How long did it take me? I would have to say from start to finish, about 1 week. It is a big feeling of accomplishment to look at them as say, “What I thought was impossible IS possible.” They weren’t hard, just time consuming.

I’ve done several other time periods that rely highly on the correct undergarments and I must say that with out them your over all appearance will suffer immensely!

Now that I know how to make ‘em I am in the process of making my second stays. This time, adding additional layers and using higher end fabric.