Minimum Garb Standards

[Capt. Sterling]

Actually no, the 1690 jacket is from a Quilting book by Colby. Just something to help with any "hunting"... sent off an email to Ninya Mikhaila, hoping she can shed some more light on the subject along with waistcoat/jumps.

And no one is actually arguing with you on the subject of jackets...and I, for one, certainly agree that tis better to make something common and be more certain of it, than something that one is not too sure about, especially the look. If Waugh states that the jackets were still worn by working women, odds are its a pretty solid statement, problem being we still don't know exactly what those jackets looked like... there is a big difference in cut from the 1690s jacket to the Bizarre fabric jacket.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[LadyBrower]

ah... Thanks.

This is all just becoming an obsession... it's painful. lol

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

What if you have a spacific look you're going for? Say gentleman pirate circa 1662-1688? Also, I portray a pirate nich I call 'Pirate Legends' where the legends of pyracy's golden age such as buried treasure, walking the plank, treasure ships and pirate flagships are common place, but so is historical accuracy, basically like Cutthroat Island.

[michaelsbagley]

Cutthroat Island had a FEW historically accurate details... but like most popular fiction drew more from the LONG cultivated misconceptions of the more" mythical" pirate look.

This topic is more about suggested guidelines for those attending a more historically focused event. Ultimately you would have to check with each events coordinator to see if the look you are aiming for is acceptable for that event or not.

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

Cutthroat Island had a FEW historically accurate details... but like most popular fiction drew more from the LONG cultivated misconceptions of the more" mythical" pirate look.

This topic is more about suggested guidelines for those attending a more historically focused event. Ultimately you would have to check with each events coordinator to see if the look you are aiming for is acceptable for that event or not.

ah, i do my pirate stuff more for enjoyment, try to be as accurate as possible, but I'm not heavy duty like SCA thanks though.

[michaelsbagley]

SCA heavy duty? Uhm, okay.. if you say so..

. Honestly from my experience the SCA have pretty lax standards ( although there are some really hard core folks that do awesome jobs in there).

Doing it for enjoyment is the best way to go about it... some of us just enjoy the added challenge of being very historical to our enjoyment. I would highly recommend going back and reading this topic through... it is very good, and entertaining as well... and not heavy duty at all as it is written to try and be inclusive as possible, not exclusive as it may seem without reading it in full.

[LadyBarbossa]

I've never known the SCA to be rather historically correct let alone accurate especially when it comes to attire. They are not as strict and dedicated to historical accuracies as, for example, the Northwest Territory Alliance or the British Brigade (and even those associations are struggling with historical accuracy).

I'll second Michael here. Don't get us all wrong, we all do it for enjoyment, fun, and pleasure, etc. But some are more historically focused than others. We all have our different views on how we portray piracy. We've all come to agree upon that.

What if you have a spacific look you're going for? Say gentleman pirate circa 1662-1688?

Piracy and pirate attire has changed HEAVILY in those two and a half decades. Think about it, how much as attire changed from 1970 to 2000? That's about the same difference you are talking there. What a Gentleman wore in 1665 was different than what was worn in 1685. And most likely, I doubt a shirt lasted 20 years either. :) So, attire changed as well as world and local events, among many other things.

The only way I know what specific look I want for that timeframe, especially as specific as a decade or a year... is research. Google is a start, check out websites, books, talk with others, etc. Museums have great examples as I've found a TON of pictures of great examples of attire and other items. Even looking at chairs, chests, sewing kits, plates, etc. The only real way to know what that specific look is, is if you research. You'd be surprised the amont of info out there. But don't settle with it. Keep going.

~Lady B

[Bos'n Cross]

please remember that fashion changes quite a bit in time....think about how easy it is to recognize an out-fit from the 1980's in comparison to one here in the 2000's....and even though fashion may not have changed aasss quickly as it does at present,(due to the lack of lightning fast media) 20years is a long time to not buy new clothes......or to not be influenced by your "betters"

[LadyBarbossa]

Also a good point, Cross. Some fashion items stay the same, as others change.

But would a seafaring person even care or have a choice of the changing fashion?

It's 1680, how many seafaring men wear a style of clothing from 1630? or 1640? or even 1660? Some might have, some might not have. I guess, to me, it's the understanding of how individual a person's character they are portraying is. Luckily, we have a good range of examples to work with. But should we be careful to label a piece or a fashion from 1680 when it's actually 1664 when it was first introduced and worn mostly from 1667 to 1671? A good means to say it was also retro just like bell bottoms have become retro more than once if I recall since 1977.

Oh, the joys of fashion. And what pirate, buccaneer, smuggler, etc would have followed it or not.

~Lady B

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

SCA= Society for Creative Anachronism doesn't it? Ever looked up those words in the dictionary?

Creative: adj. 1. having the quality or power of creating. 2. resulting from originality of thought; imaginative. 3. Facetious. producing deceptive or fraudulent information.

Anachronism: n. 1. an error in chronology in which a person, object, event, etc., is assigned a date or period other than the correct one.

..and ther ye has it. Not exactly synonymmous with "historical accuracy" now is it?

For entertainment purposes only folks.

And BTW, I am one of those who has not changed clothing style in twenty five years. I still wear the same cut of jeans and bib overalls I have for the past 25-30 years. I do get new ones now and then, but I still dress the same now as i did then.

Bo

Edited April 20, 2011 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

[jendobyns]

According to the current published rules of the SCA, a person only has to make an attempt at pre-17C garb to attend events. Having some experience on and off since the 1970's with the organization, I can tell you this is a very fuzzy line and can be achieved by very little. However, within the group there are sub-groups and individuals who are as devoted to accurate detail for their period as anyone here. With thousands of people world wide in their membership, it really isn't fair to lump any of them into one category or another, any more than it would be to do so with anyone in the Pub. Just as one group of Pirates might tend toward theatrical, Steam Punk or Historical, the same could be said for any group in the SCA (and no, I wouldn't be surprised to find Steam Punk Medieval!) It just depends on who you encounter in your travels.

We're all just part of the wide, weird and varied world of the living history playground.

Jen Dobyns

[Bos'n Cross]

he said gentleman.....not sailor...the gentleman cares......the sailor on board ship....doesn't much care....but he might care alot when trying to find a woman ashore....lol.........Bo, funny enough...even in period older people dressed like they did when they were younger....apparently we will all become set in our ways........i cant say i look forward to skinny jeans when im 40........lolol

[William Brand]

I play William Brand, a man who spent part of his childhood and teens in the Middle East. Why do I use the Middle East as part of Brand's background? Because it is part of mine, and it's easy to speak about what I know. Have I considered having some clothing from Egypt, The Sinai or Palestine? Yes, but it would be impractical for Brand to wear something that fit him when he was 17, now that he is twice that age. Also, it would be quite old by now, and if he cherished it at all, he would probably have it bundled in the bottom of a sea chest. Also, he would have been moved to buy new things over the course of his time, just like I have. The only things I still possess from my youth and my time in the Middle East are small objects of importance, not clothing. Brand has two knives that were gifted to him while he lived there, and these he has kept all his days. He also has a prayer rug that was gifted to him when he was young, but no clothing to speak of. Even a short stint in Spain did not affect his taste in clothing. Having been born of English environs, and having left the Middle East to live in the Western World, he now dresses as similarly as anyone else one might find in the Caribbean and the Colonies. If he returned to the Middle East he is just as likely as I am to re-adopt the local dress, but like me, Brand buys new clothing as old clothing gets worn. He buys it where he lives or where he is.

I could go on about my personal views on interpretation, but I try to remain pragmatic, and when I see a pirate dressed entirely in red and black leather all that I can think is "Where would a sailor buy that 'off the rack'in 1714?", and even more, "How is it that a GAoP sailor is wearing a tunic and bag of 1611, boots and a baldric from 1660, a hat from 1710, a pistol from 1750 and a cutlass of 1812? Is he traveling in time?" These thoughts are not meant to judge the individual, nor his/her taste, but as a student and fan of the historic, I'm distracted by a single costume that covers 200+ years in one go.

Mind you, I love a good distraction if distraction is the point. I've seen some fanciful interpretations that are fun, well executed and crafted to a fine degree of individuality. However, this thread is about discussing the authentic and my favorite 'minimum garb standards' are Patrick Hand and Cran Ohlandt. Their kit is so 'common' that I think of them as the consummate pirates. They're so fantastically simple as to stand out. If less is more, they are the most. Patrick knows how to make kit that he can carry and kit that carries him without overwhelming 'Patrick'. His kit is simple enough that we still see him. The same goes for Cran. We see the person. We see the man as he his. Sailor. Laborer. Pirate. A working man of the GAoP. Perfect.

Brand is a bit more...Brand. He's seen the world. He's been a Captain a time or two. He's rubbed elbows with men of great power and men of very lowly station. He's a mixed bag. I try to play him as he is. A man who has seen much, lived well, known a modest affluence, had and lost, and is as adaptable in his environment as a man can and should be. I feel that a good historic kit allows you to be a part of thing without trying to be all of a thing.

I often see 'crews' where every pirate looks the same. Every single one of them looks like an affluent, outspoken, dramatic copy of the other, but few if any of them look like sailors. I can't tell the ship's doctor from the cooper or the able seaman. I don't see a crew when I look at some 'crews', so much as a see a cast for a play. Whereas when I look at my own crew (not to brag, but it will sound like bragging anyway) I see very common sailors, tradesman, and some men of position and learning. There is a variety that can only endure if some hobbyists are willing to play the most important part of the crew...sailors. I could play a Quartermaster til the cows come home, but I'd look pretty lonely doing it without 'crew'. And not just any crew, but a crew that looks the part.

Minimum Garb actually makes the hobby what it is. We need minimalist able seaman in the hobby just as much as a ship needed them. We need more of them. We need plain, honest to goodness working sailors.

And since I'm in danger of drifting from the point...

Before I get any Hollywood Pyrates in a "huff"...

I want to explain this thread.

This thread is about what are the minimum acceptable garb standards to participate at an Authentic event.

It has nothing to do with what someone wears to a Renaissance Faire, nor is it telling anyone how he or she has to play Pyrate.

It is a discussion about Authentic events only.

My biggest Minimum Garb Standard gripe? The sailor's knife. I know it isn't garb, but if you don't have a knife, how can you not feel naked? If I had a dime for every 'pirate' or 'sailor' that didn't have that most basic tool of the trade, I'd have enough money to buy them one. If you don't have a sailor's knife, get a knife! It's THE tool. Pistols are well and good, but every sailor needs a knife. It's a weapon, eating utensil, tool, and a resume. Nothing says more about a sailor then a well kept and well used knife. Besides, why wouldn't you want a knife? Knives are cool. Do you want to be the only able Seaman without a knife? If you aren't sure, then I'll tell you. No. You don't want to be that sailor. Get a knife! Once you have a shirt, slops and shoes, get a knife.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[oderlesseye]

Eye sent ye an -e- mail as a comment and a request for some help William...

Your PM folder will not except any more messages.. >

Edited April 21, 2011 by oderlesseye

[William Brand]

Thanks for letting me know my message folder is full, and you make a good point in your email, which I'll boil down to one question.

Where does on go to get great, minimum garb, if one can't make it one's self?

Short answer. Here on the Pub. If you ever need a shirt, slops, shoes or anything else. Just ask. There are actually a number of people who will help you make garb or make it for you for a reasonable fee. In fact, there are some amazing shirt, slops, waistcoat makers here on the Pub. I'd name a few right now, but that might put them on the spot and I don't know if they are currently accepting orders or not, so I'll ask about. Also, if you see a great outfit at an event, ask the person wearing it. People are proud to tout their work and the work of fellow pirates. If you see it, chances are you can get the information of the tailor or tailors that made it.

[jendobyns]

Well put. And I'd actually put the knife _before_ the shoes.

I play William Brand, a man who spent part of his childhood and teens in the Middle East. Why do I use the Middle East as part of Brand's background? Because it is part of mine, and it's easy to speak about what I know. Have I considered having some clothing from Egypt, The Sinai or Palestine? Yes, but it would be impractical for Brand to wear something that fit him when he was 17, now that he is twice that age. Also, it would be quite old by now, and if he cherished it at all, he would probably have it bundled in the bottom of a sea chest. Also, he would have been moved to buy new things over the course of his time, just like I have. The only things I still possess from my youth and my time in the Middle East are small objects of importance, not clothing. Brand has two knives that were gifted to him while he lived there, and these he has kept all his days. He also has a prayer rug that was gifted to him when he was young, but no clothing to speak of. Even a short stint in Spain did not affect his taste in clothing. Having been born of English environs, and having left the Middle East to live in the Western World, he now dresses as similarly as anyone else one might find in the Caribbean and the Colonies. If he returned to the Middle East he is just as likely as I am to re-adopt the local dress, but like me, Brand buys new clothing as old clothing gets worn. He buys it where he lives or where he is.

I could go on about my personal views on interpretation, but I try to remain pragmatic, and when I see a pirate dressed entirely in red and black leather all that I can think is "Where would a sailor buy that 'off the rack'in 1714?", and even more, "How is it that a GAoP sailor is wearing a tunic and bag of 1611, boots and a baldric from 1660, a hat from 1710, a pistol from 1750 and a cutlass of 1812? Is he traveling in time?" These thoughts are not meant to judge the individual, nor his/her taste, but as a student and fan of the historic, I'm distracted by a single costume that covers 200+ years in one go.

Mind you, I love a good distraction if distraction is the point. I've seen some fanciful interpretations that are fun, well executed and crafted to a fine degree of individuality. However, this thread is about discussing the authentic and my favorite 'minimum garb standards' are Patrick Hand and Cran Ohlandt. Their kit is so 'common' that I think of them as the consummate pirates. They're so fantastically simple as to stand out. If less is more, they are the most. Patrick knows how to make kit that he can carry and kit that carries him without overwhelming 'Patrick'. His kit is simple enough that we still see him. The same goes for Cran. We see the person. We see the man as he his. Sailor. Laborer. Pirate. A working man of the GAoP. Perfect.

Brand is a bit more...Brand. He's seen the world. He's been a Captain a time or two. He's rubbed elbows with men of great power and men of very lowly station. He's a mixed bag. I try to play him as he is. A man who has seen much, lived well, known a modest affluence, had and lost, and is as adaptable in his environment as a man can and should be. I feel that a good historic kit allows you to be a part of thing without trying to be all of a thing.

I often see 'crews' where every pirate looks the same. Every single one of them looks like an affluent, outspoken, dramatic copy of the other, but few if any of them look like sailors. I can't tell the ship's doctor from the cooper or the able seaman. I don't see a crew when I look at some 'crews', so much as a see a cast for a play. Whereas when I look at my own crew (not to brag, but it will sound like bragging anyway) I see very common sailors, tradesman, and some men of position and learning. There is a variety that can only endure if some hobbyists are willing to play the most important part of the crew...sailors. I could play a Quartermaster til the cows come home, but I'd look pretty lonely doing it without 'crew'. And not just any crew, but a crew that looks the part.

Minimum Garb actually makes the hobby what it is. We need minimalist able seaman in the hobby just as much as a ship needed them. We need more of them. We need plain, honest to goodness working sailors.

And since I'm in danger of drifting from the point...

Before I get any Hollywood Pyrates in a "huff"...

I want to explain this thread.

This thread is about what are the minimum acceptable garb standards to participate at an Authentic event.

It has nothing to do with what someone wears to a Renaissance Faire, nor is it telling anyone how he or she has to play Pyrate.

It is a discussion about Authentic events only.

My biggest Minimum Garb Standard gripe? The sailor's knife. I know it isn't garb, but if you don't have a knife, how can you not feel naked? If I had a dime for every 'pirate' or 'sailor' that didn't have that most basic tool of the trade, I'd have enough money to buy them one. If you don't have a sailor's knife, get a knife! It's THE tool. Pistols are well and good, but every sailor needs a knife. It's a weapon, eating utensil, tool, and a resume. Nothing says more about a sailor then a well kept and well used knife. Besides, why wouldn't you want a knife? Knives are cool. Do you want to be the only able Seaman without a knife? If you aren't sure, then I'll tell you. No. You don't want to be that sailor. Get a knife! Once you have a shirt, slops and shoes, get a knife.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[Jas. Hook]

Well put. And I'd actually put the knife _before_ the shoes.

Guilty... I put the shoes before the knife... except for a small pocket folder.

Jas. Hook

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Agreed. Knives are an obsession with me. I don't even know how many I have anymore. The first thing in my hand when I get out of bed is my pocket knife, goes in my pocket as soon as I pull on my breeches. It is a rare occaision that I am without a blade of some sort on my person, no matter how I'm dressed.

Bo

[Bos'n Cross]

i wish more people had walking sticks/ cudgels......in ssoooo many illustrations sailors ashore are shown(and described in journals) as always having their sticks handy to harass women...dogs...and each other with.....heck........to carry their bags from even...........but very few people have them

[captscurvy_nc]

My biggest problem portraying Blackbeard has always been more of a baldric issue than a garb one. By the time I put the six guns in their holsters you can barely see what I'm wearing for a waistcoat anyway so I try to concentrate more on my coat when it comes to historical accuracy. When I'm doing Capt Scury I go with a more "relaxed" r "Hollywood" style of outfit. I wouldn't mind finding a patern closer to 1718 than the one I have now for a coat. Any suggestions or specific things I should concentrate on when it comes to a jacket from 1706 to 1718?

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

i wish more people had walking sticks/ cudgels......in ssoooo many illustrations sailors ashore are shown(and described in journals) as always having their sticks handy to harass women...dogs...and each other with.....heck........to carry their bags from even...........but very few people have them

Yeah! This 1771, Boston TeaParty, (out of period I know)but I always wanted to recreates the guy in this picture, the seaman with the sailors kilt (?)/ slops (?) and the bludgeon! I love this picture even though it is a brutal scene. Basic garb right there for the period though.

Bo

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

i wish more people had walking sticks/ cudgels......in ssoooo many illustrations sailors ashore are shown(and described in journals) as always having their sticks handy to harass women...dogs...and each other with.....heck........to carry their bags from even...........but very few people have them

Yeah! This 1771, Boston TeaParty, (out of period I know)but I always wanted to recreates the guy in this picture, the seaman with the sailors kilt (?)/ slops (?) and the bludgeon! I love this picture even though it is a brutal scene. Basic garb right there for the period though.

...another version of this :

Bo

[Jas. Hook]

i wish more people had walking sticks/ cudgels......in ssoooo many illustrations sailors ashore are shown(and described in journals) as always having their sticks handy to harass women...dogs...and each other with.....heck........to carry their bags from even...........but very few people have them

Yeah! This 1771, Boston TeaParty, (out of period I know)but I always wanted to recreates the guy in this picture, the seaman with the sailors kilt (?)/ slops (?) and the bludgeon! I love this picture even though it is a brutal scene. Basic garb right there for the period though.

Bo

Time to turn down that old baseball bat in the garage. Could also be an old version of a fish bat... think of Quint smashing the radio in Jaws. A tool of the trade commonly used by fisherman to subdue large fish.

Jas. Hook

[captscurvy_nc]

Another thought that follows the phrase necesatie is the mother of invention makes one wonder about another common but not so documented weapon. The nail plank. A small piece of broken plank that is unsalable in repairing the ship but perfect for hammering spikes or ships nails in and use it as a nasty blugening device on or off shore. I know pirates did not take anything on land that was considered part of the ship but do you think the same rules applied for disgaurded or beyond repair items?

[William Brand]

i wish more people had walking sticks/ cudgels......in ssoooo many illustrations sailors ashore are shown(and described in journals) as always having their sticks handy to harass women...dogs...and each other with.....heck........to carry their bags from even...........but very few people have them

That's my very next must, and anyone who knows me, knows that I recommend a stick or a cudgel at every event. We bring a pile of fresh sticks or bamboo every time we muster as the Mercury. I keep a wonderful apple wood walking stick right here by my desk.