Shoe question.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

It's possible this should go in Twill, but I'm going to be leading up to buying something, so I figured I should put it here.

When making a decision about period shoes and going with tied or buckled, where is the more common breakover point regarding dates...? In other words, when did buckles become more common than ties on shoes?

Also, are there any online resources about just how shoes would have been tied?

I couldn't find a specific thread covering this exact point, but easily could have missed it.

And now, to the Plunder-correct part of the post, would any of the more... um... affordable shoes (such as those from Jas Townsend or Fugawee) be appropriate for tying, or only for buckling?

I find myself with a small bit of discretionary funding, and the need to expand my kit in a more historically-accurate direction (a string of performances ni the Fall), and I'm thinking of going with shoes, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Matty Bottles]

My advice for you is to visit www.gentlemenoffortune.com. GoF, who is a member of this pub, has put together a terrific resource for historic-minded pirate reenactors. There may be better pics or better documentation elsewhere (for example, scattered through out the Pub), but GoF's site is comprehensive, well organized, and much of the information is all in the same place, so it is simply easier to get your answers.

[michaelsbagley]

If you are planning on going with that type of shoe (as typical of Fugawee or Jas Townsend), there is also Mount Misery / GG Godwin, they have their cheapest line of shoes priced at $80 (currently), which is cheaper than what both Fugawee and J Townsend are selling their shoes for.

[Matty Bottles]

Michael, did you order those hessian shoes, and if so, have you received them?

[Jack Roberts]

Depends on your impression. From what I can recall, if you are between 1680-1700's ties are still in use. They start to faze out around the turn of the century. I could be wrong but from I can remember that seems about right.

Kass? GoF? maybe you can pin point it better than I.

I'm getting ready to buy a couple of Concords from Fugawee. (1 pair for me and 1 for me wife.) They're close but not quite right. Anything more correct gets really expensive. I've already bought boots so I'm not about to plunk down a whole bunch of money just yet for really, really accurate, but someday I will.

[Patrick Hand]

I'm getting ready to buy a couple of Concords from Fugawee.

I bought a pair of the Concords, I like how the toungue is longer, but I wish I'd bought the straight last Ligonier.... or the Concords came in straight last.....

I have a pair of the shoe buckles that GoF was selling.... so they are almost OK.......but straight last would have been more what I want.......

[Patrick Hand]

Oh yah..... almost forgot....

But you can fold the latchets under, and using thong, tie them..... or use them with shoe buckles.......

[Rats]

I have to say the Godwin offerings are very nice!!!

If I would have seen their new ones, I might not have bought my concords!!

Those subtle commonmans shoes (Softer/ thinner leather) might be the way to go so you don't have to kill your feet breaking the things in.

I love the way my buckles look on my concords! And the folks at Fugawee were the very best to work with (Due to my indicision and misordering) But looking back I might have went with the ties instead!!!

I will also advise everyone to wear them a bit and break them in before you cut holes for your buckles, since the leather will stretch quite a bit. I ofcoarse didn't!!! Usually I would put on two pairs of socks and soak em in warm water (simulated sweat) and wear them out in the yard or around the house until they dried.

I also managed to find a pair of desert boots, which I plan to cut and use for active usage (Fighting and such, since they have some traction) and save my buckle shoes for more formal occasions and proper personnas.

Remember folks these shoes can be slick on wet wood, pavement and grass!!! So get used to them before you start laying seige to anything!!!

Cheers!

[michaelsbagley]

Michael, did you order those hessian shoes, and if so, have you received them?

No..... I got told by me misses (we're not even married yet) to save my money until after we get back from vacation....

Normally I'm pretty good at the slipping things by her un-noticed, social disobedience is the life for me , but her tone this time made me reconsider.... So they will have to wait until the end of August, or perhaps even until early September...

[Matty Bottles]

I'm getting married in September, and have had to spend wisely (or less unwisely) as well, so I totally farbed a pair from a pair of shoes I bought on ebay. I'm going to post the pics of the project soon. They are farby as heck, but they will do until I decide how far I'm going to go with this.

Say, that remind me: these farby shoes are going to be tied. Is leather laces/thong better, or silk ribbon? ANyone know?

[Rats]

Hell-wit it! Just use the leather laces from boots and such!!

Have fun and improvise!!

Just make sure they fit good and you can run from the thread Nazis or just cover em in mud and say in your best Al Pachino voice.. "Hey..... I working here!!"

Just have fun brother!!!

[michaelsbagley]

I'm getting married in September, and have had to spend wisely (or less unwisely) as well, so I totally farbed a pair from a pair of shoes I bought on ebay. I'm going to post the pics of the project soon. They are farby as heck, but they will do until I decide how far I'm going to go with this.

Say, that remind me: these farby shoes are going to be tied. Is leather laces/thong better, or silk ribbon? ANyone know?

Congrats on the coming marriage.

I'm with Rats, go with leather lacing or thonging, it will last longer, and probably be easier to do. Looking forward to seeing the pics of what you put together.

[Matty Bottles]

Leather it is. I'm going to try to put it all together and post it this weekend sometime.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Lots of information to work with, thanks to all. What info I have had has primarily come from GoF' and kass' sites in the first place, glad I'm not missing any other particularly obvious ones...

Particularly appreciate the Godwin link, always glad to have another option to choose from.

Congrats to those getting married, we just hit our eleventh anniversary last month, and neither of us have killed the other just yet, so this whole matrimony thing ain't all bad.

Will post what I come up with here as I get it happening...

[callenish gunner]

the very first thing i always do with my leather-soled shoes is to rough the sole up with a bit of coarse sandpaper (don't go gonzo with it) just enough to reduce the slipperiness of the hard smooth leather and since i know my feet i have a shoemaker add a small steel wedge in the rear outer edge of my heels and i never "polish" them with black polish i use just a coat of clear wax a few times a year ....but i do keep one pair of "dress" shoes with silver buckles for fancy dress kit been awhile since i have used those

and ties would be right for either early or late period since a poor man's shoes might lack buckles anyway ....since the secondhand buckle/clothing market was booming during period poormen would often hawk anything of value just to eat

[Red-Handed Jill]

I've been hunting for this post everywhere but darned if I can find it!

I'm looking to modify a pair of desert boots so I don't fall on my butt while swordfighting (I've seen too many people slipping and sliding on their Fugawees to even consider wearing a pair of those shoes while using edged weapons...) I saw a link somewhere about how to modify a pair of desert boots so that they look reasonable. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

[Patrick Hand]

That was something Capt. Sterling posted......

But I can't remember exactly what thread it was in.........

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I have the Ligoniers tied. I can't wear buckles due to my feet having a higher than normal bridge and they simply kill my feet. I used hand cut thong and cut off the excess latchet leather as I will not be using buckles ever nor will these shoes go to anyone else while I live. As far as when lacing was in or out, don't know, but laced shoes can be found in period artwork from any time frame. Just look for yourself.

Can't see 'em very well, but here is what I have.

Bo

[Matty Bottles]

That was something Capt. Sterling posted......

But I can't remember exactly what thread it was in.........

This is what I did, and I think they turned out rather well. You may want to ask the rest of the crew what THEY think, but I liked them. In fact, I took pictures of the process of me trimming the shoes, and was going to post them on the pub, but I had so much to do to get ready for this past weekend's event that I didn't have time.

Here is the link.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

That was something Capt. Sterling posted......

But I can't remember exactly what thread it was in.........

it's actually something I posted. The previously posted link Regiment of Foote link is where to find the information & instructions on modifying a desert boot to a latchet shoe.

Latchet shoes are very common in the ECW era and for poorer impressions up until about 1700. If you're doing later era, make the side openings smaller, as they tended to shrink as the years went on until we had closed shoes.

Also, depending you might have trouble with the tongue folding under/into the side openings. In that case, try making a little loop of thread in the center of the tongue and running the laces through the loop before going through the lacing holes (clear as mud?)

In regards to lacing, it depends on the impression and the gender. Women can have their shoes laced in just about every era. Silk ribbon is especially nice. Leather thong is good for men or poorer impressions, but a bit of lucet made cord works just as well and is a good use for scrap thread.

To lace you can either fold each strap under, stitch in place & run your lacing through the loops on either side (this is how Fugawee tells you to lace to "break them in) or you can lay the straps as you would for buckles and punch two holes through each layer then lace through the holes in a U shape.

Hope that helps!

[Red-Handed Jill]

Thanks! Now I have to find some decent desert boots.

[Matty Bottles]

I have also seen a diagram in Anthony Randolph's thesis about the cordwaining techniques displayed in the shoes salvaged from the Belle, which sank in the gulf of mexico leaving New orleans in the early 18th century, I believe, that shows holes being punched through the tongue as well and laced through both the latchets and tongue, but I don't know that is either necessary or wise. The latchets alone seem more than capable of holding the shoe, and I would leave the tongue alone.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

The latchets alone seem more than capable of holding the shoe, and I would leave the tongue alone.

In my experience the latchest aren't always enough to keep the tongue in place on modified desert boots. I made my friend a pair several months ago (he's worn them at 4 events) and the tongue had to be secured to stay in the center and not fold out the inside opening. I believe the leather is just too soft to stay in place with the boot missing half it's lacing.

IMO it's better to secure the tongue than to have it come out of place in the middle of an event and have to do emergency repairs. Better safe than sorry after all.

Jill- try e-bay for desert boots. Clark's makes them. You might also have good luck at resale shops, but that depends on your shoe size.

[Matty Bottles]

After reading you reply, I feel that I should clarify my original statement. There are so many shoe threads going around, I need to keep them straight.

Yes, I agree: on modified desert boots, something additional usually is required. I glued reinforcements to the back of my latchets, made from the leather I cut off from the rest of the shoe. I think they needed to be beefed up. The tongue was already three layers think, and solid enough to stay put. On softer shoes, Running the lace through the tongue, or otherwise attaching the latchets to the tongue, is a good idea.

What I meant when talking about leaving the tongue alone was the tongue on repros, like the kind you get from Jarnigan's or Fugawees. I was saying that even though it was a method of securing the shoe, I wouldn't poke a hole through the tongue of an expensive repro shoe, even if a few years out of period.

A shoe farbed from a desert boot - like mine are - on the other hand, are practically begging to be experimenting grounds.

[Patrick Hand]

it's actually something I posted

Wellllllll.... I just remember that Captain Sterling posted something about someone else that posted something cool...... but without being able to find the post I was looking for...... welllllllll ...........

But cool.....

We have that all worked out now.....