the skirmish'es?

[michaelsbagley]

Okay, about Starfire blades...

The only ones I've seen (and fought against) held up wonderfully. Now all three that I fought against were the same model, but I found the point on that particular model a little too pointy for my taste (as did the other combatants). Half an hour with a hand file rounding off the point solved that issue. (although some may not find the idea of altering their weapon palatable, and it might affect the manufacturer's warrantee?) The picture of the "cutlass" on Starfire's web site makes it very hard to see how pointy the tip is or if it has a slight round to it for safety. Rats, have you seen one? Can you give some more info?

Going the heavy (but dulled) blade route isn't the only option (although it does make the most "realistic" noise for combats).

There is also the fencing blade route. The sound is crap compared to using Starfire's blades (or the Armour Class or other heavy re-enactment/theatrical blades), but the advantage is, it is easier to do "safely", and for the most part cheaper on the pocket book.

Darkwood Armory is now offering curved fencing blades or cutlass blades for safe combat.... But their web site has NO pictures of what these blades look like. Priced at between $140 and $180 for just the blade and then with economy fittings starting at about $100... That would make for a sword that starts at about $250ish... And not look any more or less wrong than a starfire...

Or

Cheaper yet...

Popinjays. They have several "Smallswords" in the $125 to $150 range. Many of which look pretty accurate for the GAoP.... And for a for more sheckles, you could have a curved fencing blade added to that smallsword style handle.... Curved fencing blades.. And for a few bucks more than that (okay maybe a fair bit more), you could easiely get Popinjays to make a custom fittings that would be even more authentic looking on a custom blade. One note on the Popinjay smallsowrds, they are sold with an epee blade, I would suggest ordering one with a schlager blade or other heavier and not sports fencing style blade if you are interested in this.

Another alternative is MK Armory, the specialize in heavy fencing weapons (as in not for sports fencing, i.e. SCA style fencing and/or SCA cut and thrust style blades). They made my custom peice (picture below). As most heavy fencing weapons are made with threaded rod tangs, the blades can be swapped out. I have a 28 inch diamond profile fencing blade, and a 30 inch heavy sabre fencing blade that I can use on this weapon.

So I think the first thing that probably needs to be done is a group (majority) agreement needs to be made on weapons...

Heavy bladed swords (sound, feel and generally look better)

or

Fencing weapons (generally cheaper, safer, and lighter to use)

Mixing the two is a recipe for a heavy bladed weapon to snap someone's fencing blade like a twig.

I've done both kinds of fighting, and have no real preference... But at the moment I have fencing weapons that look correct for the period and only heavy bladed weapons for another period (the Paul Chen practical Viking broad sword).

I'd love to hear some more opinions from those going as to which route they think best.....

Edit - There is also "Zen Warrior Armory"... Their page on blades has schlager and rapier fencing style blades starting at $65 to $85 pending length (no fittings or handle). They also sell handles, but they are again yet another fencing supplier who does not have sufficient images of their merchandise.

This web page has a comparative chart for pricing some of the above mentioned items (and some I have not mentioned).

[Hawkyns]

Chiming in here. I won't be at PiP, I'll be at the Reenactors Fest, so take my words for whatever you think they are worth. I an a big believer in the rounded point, blunted edge for combat. Ihave been working with the dime (or nickel) sized rounded tip for about 10 years and have been very happy with it. I got my first training on combat blunts from the ECWS/Sealed Knot people who came over for the ECW battles back in the 90's. I am a big supporter of Armour Class and own 3 of their blades, but i know the time cn be long and the money is defi nitely not cheap. Still the gold standard, though, INMSHO.

I've also have a Darkwwod blade, that happens to be an almost exact copy of my original 18th c blade. Nice shellguard, breat blade, rounded tip. It is a little lighter than my AC blades and not as thick in either the spine of the edge, but I'm OK with that. Sometimes my wrist requires a lighter weapon.

One other blade that I've worked with is the Double Canelure from American Fencing Supply in SFO. the blade ca be cut down and rounded (slow and careful, don't heat and kill the temper) and makes a creditable banger blade. Shell guards can be hammered out of brass or sheet steel without too much difficulty, and a wood grip is easy to drill out and carve to shape.

I've played with a lot of sword systems over the last 25 years. For the best look for the public, I have to go with the blunt edge and no mask look. We also require no thrusts. Any of these blades is too stiff to put a thrust into someone without hurting them. and I don't care how good you are, crap happens in a fight, they move towards you as you thrust, you slip on the grass, they miss the parry, etc. So keeping to edge only and going at 1/2 to 3/4 speed looks good for the public and is safer for the participants.

Training is a must. I do not favor giving someone a few quick lessons with a sword and letting them use steel on the field. Amyone with decent training can usually interact with someone from another school after a few sessions of joint practice. Set your conventions, make sure they are understood, and then work up from dead slow. Shouldn't be a problem for a decent swordsman (or woman).

The one cardinal rule here is DO NOT LOOK AT THIS AS A COMPETITION. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO WINS!!!!!!! It is a martial art, and martial arts requires training and the willingness to get some bumps and bruises. The new fighter can get the steel version of buck fever and start laying about himself or thrusting as the adrenaline kicks in. That is why I don't reccommend letting anyone do this wha has not had some real training prior to PiP.

For what it's worth.....

Hawkyns

[William Brand]

I'll mention this again since I believe that it needs repeating.

The ground is coral with a thin layer of sand, grass and in some cases, loose coral on coral. It can be treacherous ground. It twists ankles and creates opportunities for injury.

During my first battle at PIP I crossed the field at a dead run in order to hide along the moat. Just as I reached the moat I lost my footing and crashed. I didn't just trip. I crashed. I wasn't badly hurt, but it twisted my ankle and skinned up my arms a little bit.

It isn't the safest open ground to cover in heels and boots, so be mindful of this when you attend. I would recommend that everyone who plans to fight there should walk about the place and get a feel for the footing.

My two cents.

[Capt. Sterling]

The one cardinal rule here is DO NOT LOOK AT THIS AS A COMPETITION. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO WINS!!!!!!!  It is a martial art, and martial arts requires training and the willingness to get some bumps and bruises.  The new fighter can get the steel version of buck fever and start laying about himself or thrusting as the adrenaline kicks in.  That is why I don't reccommend letting anyone do this wha has not had some real training prior to PiP.

For what it's worth.....

Hawkyns

I do think Hawkyns brings up some very valid points especially the last bit here about it not being a competition...

for safety sake and since most of the folks at PiP do not have the ability to train together, there should be no live steel on the field that is NOT choreographed and rehearsed ahead of time at least during the battle scenarios.

Back in camp, one on one, could be a different story...perhaps..., but on the field, choreographed only and discussed well ahead of time at the safety meetings with the actual fighters being pointed out so that everyone on the field will know ahead of time who is drawing steel and that way they will also know who to give a wide berth to...

[Rats]

Very nice shell guard!!!!

As Patrick has mentioned there is generally an agreed upon series of 8 strikes.

There is also a shorter series which we used, (I went back to the main series) at Pike River.

The big thing seems to be distance and control!

If the proper distance is kept and the proper target is offred by your partner, all you're doing is hitting each other blades and "selling" the attack. That's where the pre-practice comes in!!!

Also if you find yourself suddenly facing someone different or unexpectidly, the crowd is usually so far away, you can usually coach each other. Someone has to give in!!!

MD mentioned about a young "new" pirate recruit at the Lockhouse event, who suddenly found himself facing the one and only Mad Dog under the Gallows.....

The young man ran up heroicly (and then sheepishly whispered...), "I've never done reenacting with a sword before...." to which Mad Dog smiled at him and said, "Then you die first!" as he parried the blade and calmly lowered the flat of his own blade across the young fella's back.. Problem solved!!

I have what is possibly one of the prototypes from starfire. Could it be smoothed out and rounded more?? Sure!!! Nothing a couple of minutes with a file wouldn't fix!!!

I'll take a pic or two when I get my blade back with the guard added!!

I would also like to mention in no way am I saying folks have to run out an get one sword or another to play!!! This is just what we are starting to lean toward since we have some already... That's where the partnering up comes in!!

Michael I would love to see more of that sword of yours and the blades you have with it!!!

I especially like the changeable options!!!

What kind of price though????

[Capt. Sterling]

Also if you find yourself suddenly facing someone different or unexpectidly, the crowd is usually so far away, you can usually coach each other. Someone has to give in!!!

Well see.... um... that's the last thing you really want to happen with live steel during your "usual" reenactment... the um... "SUDDENLY or UNEXPECTEDLY" bit... since this isn't a competition. Now if it were an immersion weekend, or the like, then that would be a different story and then you really do need protective gear, etc.

...especially with all that coral and since I'm the only idiot wearing heels...

[michaelsbagley]

Very nice shell guard!!!!

I especially like the changeable options!!!

Thanks! I am very happy with the work Krieger did on it.

Michael I would love to see more of that sword of yours and the blades you have with it!!!

Rather than post a bunch of pictures here... I thought I would just post a link to a folder on mySpace with all of the pictures... That way those interested can look, and those not interested can move along....

Edit 8/28/07 - Since I can't get the link to work, I'll add a few pics

With the diamond profile fencing blade (including the rubber safety tip)

With the heavy sabre fencing blade (no safety tip).

Both blades together for comparison....

What kind of price though????

This was a custom job, so the price on this is a bit higher (or I assume so). I imagine if any sort of quantity was ordered (like even 3 would be enough I would guess), Krieger would probably do a bit better on the price, but that would have to be something the interested party would have to take up with Krieger, I would happily put a word in to Krieger for anyone here so interested, just contact me. Anyway, the blades were between $125 and $150, and the shell guard and other handle fittings came to $125.

I have what is possibly one of the prototypes from starfire. Could it be smoothed out and rounded more?? Sure!!! Nothing a couple of minutes with a file wouldn't fix!!!

I'll take a pic or two when I get my blade back with the guard added!!

I'd love to see some pics of the Starfire cutlass prototype! As to your filing the tip down on it, you may want to ask the dude at Starfire about that, I'd hate to see your warantee voided.

[Rats]

Hey Michael!!

No pics on the lonk you posted. Just the main intro page????

Agreed with the voided warranty

[michaelsbagley]

Hey Michael!!

No pics on the lonk you posted. Just the main intro page????

Agreed with the voided warranty

Fixed, thanks for letting me know that didn't work...

See original post for the pics....

[theM.A.dDogge]

yawn ...just wakin up...sorry 'bout that rats...been workin 24/7 since paynestown.....not been keepin up with the posts....ok i am caught up now.....that last lttle bit sounded a bit familiar.....

ok....regarding steel blades in da field......

rule # 1.....choreagraphy safest of all...well rehearsed...ahead of time.....

rule #14....agreed upon "BANGERS" (for battle)...vs "HANGERS"(sharpies for show).....never any "HANGERS/SHARPIES in battle scenarios.....unless HIGHLY CHOEROGRAPHED FOR UP CLOSE TO AUDIENCE EFFECTS....special circumstances only

rule # 28....similar blades vs similar blades...ie starfire against strfire...rapier vs rapier....loddaladdaladda..ya get yhe point

rule # 162....know who yer fightin...same group safest....or one teacher vs student...should really stayu away from newbie vs newbie...unless supervised and approved ahead of time....

rule # 278....fight in designated area....in a battle...areas where shootin only(no blades allowed)...then run through blades area(no guns allowed)...should always be scouted out earlier

rule # 302...slow down yer feet....run up to the fight...then stop...then engage....be mindful of yer blade...yer opponent...yer audience....yer feet...etcetcetc

rule # 436...ahhh ...i forgot that one

rule # 524 and a 1/2.......make sure everyone else in battle scenario....fightin or not...knows when and where yer plannin to swing yer blades....and is ok with that.....

rule # 524 and 3/4...apendix B......simple "hits" and "blocks" can be discussed and practiced with the "newbies" for a safe alternative to choreagraphed....as long as everyone stays within safe zones...

rule # 525....never mind...never liked that rule....

rule #526.....see rule # 672

rule #672....NOT A COMPETION....NOT TRUE FENCING...STAGED COMBAT ONLY....object to LOOK AS IF YOUR ARE FIGHTING TO THE DEATH ( or at least to the pain)...DONT ACTUALLY FIGHT TO THE PAIN.....

rules # 803 thru # 4,682...will save fer another post...when i actully wake up....

[Capt. Sterling]

**Sterling flipping through pages** Ah is that in rule book number one, volume twenty-five... or book number 324, volume 12???

[michaelsbagley]

Mad Dogge's reply all sounds very good to me.... except...

rule # 1.....choreagraphy safest of all...well rehearsed...ahead of time.....

Some of us are a little far removed. While many do have the advantage of having groups they see (and can practice with) on a regular (or even semi-regular) basis.... Some of us are coming more or less alone (and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here).

Rule #28 is so simple and so brilliant, I feel like an idiot for not thinking of it myself....

[Capt. Sterling]

rule # 162....know who yer fightin...same group safest....or one teacher vs student...

We might be able to help with the one teacher vs student...if such a pairing takes place far enough away from the spectators, the teacher can actually continue to teach the student and it will still look great for the crowds...and the student will still learn and have fun.

[Mary Diamond]

PLAY WITH ME!

Just ask my mates how I feel about practicing!

[Capt. Sterling]

See, Mary will have you practicing ALL NIGHT... you'll be an expert before the sun rises or just totally exhausted where the thought of even lifting a sword is painful...

[Jack Roberts]

Well sounds good. Problem is I don't have a "banger" nor have the funds to put into one. But I would love to practice off the battle field.

[Capt. Sterling]

Well sounds good. Problem is I don't have a "banger" nor have the funds to put into one. But I would love to practice off the battle field.

Well my daughter and I practice the moves constantly without swords... so come join Maddogge's class any way, at least you can learn what to do and you'll be ready once you are ready to make your steel purchase..

[michaelsbagley]

Well sounds good. Problem is I don't have a "banger" nor have the funds to put into one. But I would love to practice off the battle field.

I have enough spare peices to make two bangers.... (see post above, and keep in mind I will be using one of them)

My other cup guard is more late 18th or even early 19th century, so it is about 100 years+/- out of period, I'd be happy to loan it to you for practice and/or the battles.

And knowing me, I may just end up buying a third blade and handle by that time.... So I MAY (as in maybe, might, possibly, no guarantees etc. ad nauseum) have another spare weapon to loan out. I'm sure there are others coming that will similarly be able to share. I don't think it would be a good idea to show up expecting charity, but as long as the communication stays as good as it has been, I'm sure all will be great.

[theM.A.dDogge]

'course....rule # 436....that was always my favorite....that rule should really go without sayin....so obvious an all

[theM.A.dDogge]

now micheal...i know that yer a fencer..and a sca man.....what are their rules on "screw tip tangs"...the jousting and sword fighter groups i had belonged to never allowed these because it was a weak spot at the hadle and usaully led to breakage(durring a show...bad)....full tang only was always beat into our heads(quite literally)...'course they also had a tendency to hit a bit harder with broad swords rather than the style used with sabres and small swords....

personally i never actually trusted the screw hilts for the same reason...what has been your experience???...or anyone elses for that matter....yeah or neah??

[Rats]

MD........ Yer a diamond my friend! LaughMyBleedinArseoff!!!!

Michael I really like the look of that second version with the saber blade!!! You say it holds up to SCA fighting??? Perhaps for staged combat????

I'm also looking into recieving demo pieces from Knights Edge in Chicago. To see how they might fair against SF blades and such.

Oi Freeboot!!

Don't every worry about extras mate!!! There are always easy altrnatives for practice! We have a pair of youngsters who go blazes fast with a pair of hickory sticks (i believe).

A good cudgel (free) or hatchet ($35 tops) will also work just fine. Plus we should have "some" spare practice pieces....

Who knows.. with the way my hand is going, you might be able to use my blade!!

Now remember there are also daggers out there for a lesser price!!!! ($60-70) and a good stage ready dagger with a pistol for a cudgel would be just fine to mix it up with!!

[Capt. Sterling]

Plus we should have "some" spare practice pieces....

Please, do NOT count on these as we still have to figure out how to get our own regular pieces to PiP!

[michaelsbagley]

Screw tang or rod tang weapons are fine and hold up to heavy fencing (think SCA style fencing although many other groups use similar conventions as well). In fact screw tip tanged weapons are pretty much the de facto standard within the SCA (as far as I know).... On that note, I'm not a huge SCA guy... I love fencing, and fence within the SCA, but outside the SCA being a convenient outlet for my fencing habit, I'm not a big advocate or incredibly active member. No offence taken at the comment, just trying to be clear on where I stand.

For the heavy re-enactment blades (such as Stafire, Armour Class, etc.) I would STRONGLY recomend againats ever pairing a rod tanged weapon against one of those. That would be a recipe for a broken toy.

Michael I really like the look of that second version with the saber blade!!! You say it holds up to SCA fighting??? Perhaps for staged combat????

Here's the rub, in the SCA there is a newer sword fighting convention called "Cut and Thrust" or in some areas "Sidesword". The "Cut and Thrust" style tries to be closer to the conventions use by re-enactment battle groups that use the full tanged weapons (such as the Armour Classes and Starfire), but manages only to find itself about half way between heavy fencing and heavy re-enactment combat. My sabre blade is made to those specs, the diamond profile blade is a fencing blade (so is much lighter). "Cut and Thrust" still uses rod tanged weapons, but I don't think even the heavier "Cut and Thurst" weapons would hold up for long against the full tanged weapons.

So while screw tip tanged weapons are fine against each other and hold up fine... I wouldn't ever pit them against the heavier full tanged weapons (and of course vice versa) ... I think I might just have to work myself towards a full tanged re-enactment blade.... I was hoping I could use what I had, but it seems the heavy solid tanged weapons are the standard in pirate re-enacting as well (and I don't think my full tanged re-enactment combat safe Viking swords would be appreciated at a pirate event )....

Now here is an item where I'm thinking I may not be on the same page as some of you (but I might be wrong, so I'll raise the point).... I tend to seperate "re-enactment combat" from "stage combat"... It may seem like I am splitting a hair here, but to me the two are very different.

Re-enactment combat - is more free formed, and less scripted, and can be (but isn't always) semi-competetive (as far as safety will allow anyways). Re-enactment battles styles also tend to focus more on group scenarios and encourage fighting techniques that are more geared that way.

Stage combat - tends to be more one on one (but not always so). Stage combat weapons tend to have a point so they look better on the stage/screen. Stage combat also tends to be based a lot more on choreography, and almost never free-formed. The tips on Stage combat weapons can be pointy, because the fights are more choreography and not semi-freeform like re-enactment combat.

Thats the short version of where my mind is... I might be wrong, but it seems as if others aren't drawing the line at the same point as me (or at all). If I'm going off on too much of a tangeant, please let me know. I'm really trying to get a good grip on what others are doing so I can be best prepared to work well with what conventions are decided for when I do get to PiP.

[Patrick Hand]

dagger with a pistol for a cudgel would be just fine to mix it up with!!

Re-enactment combat - is more free formed, and less scripted, ....

Stage combat - tends to be more one on one (but not always so).

I think something got missed in my eairlier post.....

OK... there are people that have corriographed combat sequences... (just to make it easy, I'll call that Stage combat) and can play together and put on a good rousing sword fight.....

Then there are people that know how to handle a weapon (fencing, SCA sword and Board, or Re-enactment combat )

Then there are people that know which end of a sword to hold....

(NOTE: I'm not saying they are stupid or dangerous, just that they haven't fought with any style of blade combat or Stage Combat)

But because of a mix of different fighting systems or weapons weights... or practice....

How can we have a Clash of Arms witout anyone getting hurt?

Maybe ....

The people that know Stage combat would be closer to the crowd, (The Foreground) so they can amaze eveyone with thier corriographed combat....

The people that have compatable weapons and experience would be in the middle (The Midground)....

And everyone else would be in the (background).....

The Foreground fighters already know what they are doing...

The Midground fighters need to agree what weapons, rules and equipment they need...

And the Background, needs something to do other than just watch the fight..... BUT it must be safe!

(I still don't think I explained it quite right.....)

[Silkie McDonough]

blast ...maybe I will have to find someone round here SOON! I want to play!