Period correct Longboat specs

[Capt. Sterling]

Anyone have proper building specs for a period correct longboat? GAoP time frame. IF so please post. The Archangel crewe is ready to build. Thanks.

[Bully MacGraw]

Mr. Sterling

Please look at the Frontier FOlk Message Board. There is a current topic on the subject.

I f I may make a suggestion, if you have never built a boat before, this is a grand undertaking. BUT there are some interesting plans for boats being built from marine plywood. A Mr. Ian Oughtred has drawn many plans for boats of that material. Much of his work is influenced by traditional Scottish boats.

Edward McGrath esq.

[Capt. Sterling]

Thank you I shall investigate that which you have suggested...

[Coastie04]

Don't know if there are any specific specs. I learned that it was slightly less than the distance from the foremast to the mainmast, as that's where they were stored. To me, this seems to say that each vessel might have a different sized long boat, and as they were work vessels, they may have been replaced at some point with whatever fit. Granted, I've not seen any historical documentation for this, it's what I've learned from sailing on a 1750's replica merchant vessel, so although it makes sense, it could be entirely different for the Royal Navy.

Coastie

[Capn_Enigma]

A longboat was up to 14 m long, had 8 to 14 pairs of swivels and a mast with a fore- and- aft rigged sail.

It was mainly used to transport heavy loads, and also to haul the ship's anchor when kedging.

[Coastie04]

Capt. Enigma brought up a point that I forgot to mention before. The long boats were the work horses of the day, much like a Hummer in the army today. It would be configured to it's purpose. I've seen the boats rigged with between 1 and three masts, and the masts can be stepped in multiple places. So, the masts could be stepped around whatever cargo they were carrying. I've seen an engraving before of a long boat loaded with supplies nearly all the way up the single foremast, one person on top of the cargo with a pair of oars, one person on the rudder, and a single stays'l by the bow. Obviously, if the long boats are being used to tow a becalmed ship, they wouldn't even worry about stepping the masts. They also were employed to carry cannons or swivel guns as well. Below are a few pictures from a google search of long boats in different configurations. Many are from http://www.privateermedia.com/boats/boats.htm, which also has specs of size for them, as well as many more small boats from the 17th-19th Centuries

Coastie

[michaelsbagley]

Coastie posted a small image above in his post.... But here is the link to the full sized image. It is plate 48, that I believe you would be most interested in.

Chapman's Ship Designs

While these ship designs are dated to the 1760s (or thereabouts), it is unlikely that ship designs would have changed much for Longboats. And honestly, if you show up with a longboat to an event that is 30 or 40 years later dated, I seriously doubt anyone would even comment on it. That and as no period longboats have been found to make plans from, and no period plans are available, this is the closest you will likely find.

The plans are detailed, but lack the lofting charts. From what I have read on the subject, seriously experienced boat designers can make lofting charts for these types of plans.... But that will require the hiring of such a person... Which I would wager a guess that would be a pretty pricey endeavor. Apparently, there is lofting software out there, but I have read mixed reviews about these things, and they are not exactly cheap either.

Regardless of which route you take, best of luck to you guys! It's a worthy venture!

[Capt. Sterling]

See tis the dated to 1760s bit that troubles me... I believe it was GoF that informed me that the late 17th century/early 18th century lines were quite different...

[michaelsbagley]

I agree, I seem to recall a similar post regarding that....

And I would completely believe that with regards to ships, but as Longboats are not ships, and basically a simple service vehicle, I would wager (and this is me talking out of my backside and not from real knowledge) that longboats would not have changed much, if at all.

So I guess the first step would be to find out if " the late 17th century/early 18th century lines were quite different" statement is an absolute truism, or a generalization regarding ships and larger vessels only. While not a conclusive method, one could go through the various period images of Longboats from the two different times, and see if there is any real difference visually. It could help determine if the difference in lines was a truism or if longboats changed much or not.

I admire your determination to find the perfect longboat, but I truly honestly believe you may have to settle for the closest thing available. I hope I am wrong and your researches can prove otherwise though!

[Matty Bottles]

I'd recommend buying an old aluminum rowboat, and covering it with wood-grain pattern contact paper...

[Capt. Sterling]

Sterling clutching at heart... good thing ye be in my crewe and I know yer sense of humor.... Still tis the Gunner's daughter fer ye at the next event!

[Capn_Enigma]

From the various links and images that have been posted, it is obvious that some confusion exists on the nomenclature of the various types of boats that a ship had on board.

They were (in descending order as to size):

Longboat

Biggest boat on board. 14 m or less, facilities for a sail , 8 to 14 pairs of sculls. Used for goods transport.

Cutter

Also called pinnace. 5 to 8 pairs of sculls and sailing facilities. In the 17th c., there was only one cutter on board. Used for transporting light goods.

Skiff

Or jolly- boat. 3 to 4 pairs of sculls, mostly no sail. Used for transporting personnel.Smallest boat on board until the second half of the 18th c.

Gig

Narrow, but fast boat for personnel transport. 3 pairs of oars, no sail. The gig was exclusively used to transport the ship's master, or, at the most, his officers. When introduced in the late 18th c., the gig assumed the duties of the skiff. Only one on board.

Dinghy

Smallest boat, 3.5 to 4 m long, 2 to 3 sculls or oars. Also introduced in the late 18th c. A vessel carrying a dinghy did mostly not carry a skiff and vice- versa.

[Fox]

Bit early but Charles II's barge is still extant. Incidentally it was also used in 1806 as Nelson's funeral barge.

There is also in the NMM a sheet with lines and elevations of half a dozen boats drawn around 1700-1710, but I can't offhand find the citation.

If we're talking about GAoP nomenclature then let's not forget:

Barge: large boat, narrowish, often with an overhanging transom. Usually a kind of personal transport for higher ranking officers.

Pinnace: slightly smaller and proportionally broader (usually) that a barge. Somewhere in the region of 6-10 oars. Often used in the same way as a barge by lower ranking officers. (Sorry to debate the point, but I don't think cutters and pinnaces are the same thing, though they were often used in similar ways. Incidentally, you mention cutters in the 17thC, do you have a pre-1712 source for them?)

Yawl: small boat, 4-8 oars.

Edit: as far as extant boats go, there are four others in the NMM which I can't find photos of, all Royal barges from 1689-1732. Of these the barge of Queen Mary (1689) is probably the most significant since it was based on the lines of a ship's boat, though enlarged.

[Capt. Sterling]

Thank you all! Well go hunting Foxe, thanks for pointing out the direction.

[MorganTyre]

One thing that has certainly changed from GAoP to the 1760's is the rig of the boat. I should have some details from that general era at home somewhere I'll see if I can't find it and post.

[William Brand]

I came across this by accident this morning...

http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/L3251E...51E11.htm#draw2

Not longboats, but some interesting free plans just the same.

[Island Cutter]

I have just found this thread so forgive this late reply.

If you are looking specifically to REPLICATE an accurate copy of a period longboat, you might try the Ship's Plans division of the Smithsonian Museum. The ordering process is a bit complicated and rather archaic... order the catalog of plans, then order the plans themselves, by mail.

I do have that catalog, and I will look to see what is available and perhaps save you that tedious step.

As for the actual building, here's the good and bad news...

I have been employed as a boat builder / ship's carpenter so this opinion comes from some personal experience so take it for what it is worth... an opinion.

An accurate, replica longboat will be a difficult and expensive project that will consume significant amounts of money. That said, if you have the time and the space to build, and a very determined crew of volunteers, it will be tremendously rewarding.

There are alternatives to an accurate replica, but it really depends upon what you want to do with the vessel once completed. if it is a "static display" to show exactly how such a boat would have been made, then you have only one course of action (and I will skip those details for the moment.)

If you are looking to create a visually, very similar vessel in which you will actually row or sail; and one that will be more of a supporting character in the narative, then you have a more attainable goal.

There are a lot of currently available products and techniques that will keep costs down, speed up the building process and require less previous knowledge and skill of trained boat builders.

Once you know into which of these catagories your Longboat will fall, I can help to guide you as best as I can.

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm, you are planning on attending PiP, correct? Think I shall clap you in irons and pick yer brain for awhile....

[Island Cutter]

Hmmm, you are planning on attending PiP, correct? Think I shall clap you in irons and pick yer brain for awhile....

My knowledge and experience are at your service.

If you have some general idea into which category (replica or "historically inspired design") your longboat might fall, I can bring along some literature and documentation that might be helpful.

[Island Cutter]

While these ship designs are dated to the 1760s (or thereabouts), it is unlikely that ship designs would have changed much for Longboats. And honestly, if you show up with a longboat to an event that is 30 or 40 years later dated, I seriously doubt anyone would even comment on it. That and as no period longboats have been found to make plans from, and no period plans are available, this is the closest you will likely find.

I think that I may have found a couple of set of plans...

Smithsonian Institution - Ship Plan List

Long Boat-1775 NMAH-007 1775, William A. Baker draft (25') pg. 181

Longboat for Ship of the Line ASSC-2 1725-1740; (skeg-built Longboat) pg. 19

Please see my previous post regarding aquisition of Smithsonian Plans.

[Capt. Sterling]

bumped for Maddogge

[Pirate Petee]

I'm building a 12' sailing skiff for my crew and I. Using the stitch and glue method, not period, but I am using wood.

I wanted it ready for Ojai, but its taking a little longer than planned.

[switters]

congratulations on the hull, Who is the designer? I'm working on a 16' Goat island skiff but not as far along as you are. (winter project anyway) Keep posting pics as you progress. I've been trying to figure out how to mount a few four pounders, what do you plan?

[michaelsbagley]

For those who are interested in ships or boats... While I was searching for something else, I staggered across a reference to flat bottomed battoes. Up until today my general view on Batteaux or Battoes was that they were an innovation of the mid to late 18th century. While I would guess pirates did not use batteaux or battoes, this does seem to indicate that they were used in the later portion of the period!

Citation is dated to June 21/1711 and can be found http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.as...px?compid=73862 Emphasis on the relevant text added by me.

Col. Cranston reported to ye Councill of Warr that ye Assembly of ye Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations had consented to ye raising of 160 men and no more. And that he desired that Mr. George Lee might be Lt. Colonel to Col. Nalton in ye regiment consisting of ye Massachusets and Newhamshire where he was Major ye last yeare. In pursuance of ye order for fish, Col. Hunter wrote to Mr. Commissary Belcher to procure 700 quintalls, and to Comadore Cockburn about ye convoying the two transports from Boston to York, etc. June 22. It being moved to ye Councill of Warr for their advise whethere it were not for ye serv[ic]e and safety of ye troops or ye land part going toward Mountreal to have a reserve of provisions sent with the Fleet to Quebeck and so to Mountreal, advised that Govr. Saltonstall do send 3 months subsistance and provisions necessary for his quota of men in two sloops to Boston to joyn ye fleet and to proceed to Canada and from thence find ye best and safest passage to ye Cap wheresoevere they bee, and the sloops to be at the disposall of the officers for the bringing back any sick or wounded or other service. For the supply of ship carpenters for ye building of battoes or flat bottom boats at Albany or elsewhere, Governour Saltonstall is desired to provide ten good able ship carpenters, and let them be sent forthwith to Albany to Col. Schuyler or such other officer as shall be appointed by Govr. Hunter for that service, who shall be paid by H.M. Advised that Govr. Saltonstall provide at the best hand and send to Albany 200 bevers and 600 sheep to be delivered to Col. Hunter or his order for his own quota. Col. Rednap attending was directed to proceed in the service, and in order thereunto to repair to York to receive Gov. Hunter's Commission for the present expedition, and he is allowed 1s. per diem for himselfe and his clerk during ye expedition for his extraordinary service. Major Levingstone attending ye Board with his Commission as Major and Commander of a Scout drawn out of ye forces by ye Commander in Chiefe of ye Expedition late to Port Royal, and his Journal in that service, the Councill were of opinion that ye office and service was very necessary, and Govr. Hunter was desired to give him commission accordingly and a letter to ye Generall of ye forces recommending him in ye name of ye Board, and that he forthwith attend ye Generall with a copy of this Journal and other observations, and be at his direction where to serve either in the expedition to Quebeck or with the land forces by the way of Albany. The Governours at the Board severally reported that in obedience to H.M. Instructions, they had made strict and generall embargoes in all their ports to prevent intilligence to be given to ye enemy of ye present expedition. Govr. Dudley acquainted ye Board that he desired Major Roberton might serve in ye Massachusets forces, and that he had a company for him as two years past, which was acceptable to ye Board. Advised that ye forces of Connecticut march from their head quarters at Newhaven towards Albany July 2nd, being as soon as possible they can be ready, and that Col. Hunter be desired to use all possible expedition with ye Assemblys of New York and ye Jerseys to hasten ye raysing and mounting of the severall quotas for those Governments. Major Generall Winthrop, Coll. Townsend, and Lt. Coll. — from Boston attended and gave account under Mr. Commissary Belcher's hand what wine, rum, rice all might be had in Boston for ye service of ye British forces, which was well excepted by H.E. Col. Hunter, and desired that there might be no delay or interruption in ye comeing down of their provisions from West Hampshire, which was recommended to Govr. Saltonstall; they also presented their challenge of debt from Connecticute and Rohode Island for ye joynt service and pray'd that ye accounts might be recommended to ye Generall Assembly of Connecticut and Rhode Island. In consideration of ye great charge and expence of ye travels by sea and land and attendence of H.M. Governours to the present Congress being the disdance of 100 miles and more, the Board are of opinion that there should be allowed to ye severall Governors the sumes following:—Govr. Hunter, £50; Govr. Dudley, £50; Govr. Saltonstall £20; Governour Cranston £25; Col. Schuyler £40 etc. H.M. in ye 11th Instruction to Govr. Hunter commanding the obteyning ye service of ye Maques, and their scouting, and service is recommended to ye officers at Albany and elswhere in ye service. And the 11th Instruction and ye second in ye additionall Instructions relating to ye raiseing of ye Militia be referred to ye severall Governours, ye circumstances of ye severall Colonys and provinces not being possible to be reduced to one form or direction from this Board, and that ye Governours are desired severally to give intilligence to each other of any appearance of an enemy, and to keep out armed sloops to discover the approach of an enemy. Governour Cranston desired that the vote of ye Assembly of Rhode Island for ye raising of 162 men might be excepted for the present expedition. The Board do agree thereunto provided ye said number do not includ officers nor saylors. Col. Hunter reported what he had done to provide rum and wine and rice for ye subsistance of ye British forces, which was accepted at ye Board, and he was farther desired to proceed. H.M. having commanded a publick Fast in all her provinces and Governments to implore ye favor and blessing of Almighty God upon ye Expedition, it is recommended to ye severall Governours to take care therein. Col. Hunter shewed ye list of officers sent by H.M., and offerd ye service of any number of them to the other Governours at the Board. Col. Cranston informed the Board he wanted none. Col. Dudley referr'd ye consideration of ye affair so far as concernd him till ye arrivall of Col. Vetch who was to comand his part of ye forces. Col. Hunter is desired to supply Col. Cranston with 162 fuzees for ye service of his quota with ye other accoutrements. Upon reading at the Board ye severall letters of ye Rt. Hon. Mr. Secretary St. John, they are satisfyed that all that can be done is proceeded as far as may be untill the arrivall of ye Generall of the forces and Col. Vetch. It is left with Col. Hunter and Col. Dudley to settle an express to pass between Boston and Albany every ten days, and Generall Nicholson is desired to give notice from Albany when ye express shall begin. Col. Hunter's express to come from Albany to Springfield to be performed at H.M. charge, and Govr. Dudley's from Springfield to Boston. Upon ye reading at the Board ye Addresses from Capt. Southack and Capt. Redgood the principell pilots to Quebeck, it is desired that Govr. Dudley will lay the papers before ye Generall and Admiral that they may be considered for a just reward of their service. H.M. having directed that Col. Hunter Col. Dudley in concert with Col. Nicholson draw out what money is found in any of H.M. offices of receipt in ye severall Governments, Ordered that a copy of that Instruction with a warrant from ye sd. Governours severally in joynt with Coll. Nicholson and receipt thereupon shall be ye sufficient warrant for the drawing out the money accordingly. The Councill recommended it to ye Governments of New York, ye Jerseys, Connecticut and Rhode Island to make ye same orders to prevent ye assisting and harbouring deserters as is made in the Goverment of ye Massachusets. The Councill of Warr having proceeded in what as yet appear'd necessary for ye service, and it b(e)ing absolutely necessary that the severall Governors all take care in their particular provinces. What shall appear farther necessary for ye service of ye land Expedition and referd to H.E. Governour Hunter and General Nicholson, Coll. Schuyler or any other members of ye Board that can be present at any time to be there concluded and proceeded in from time to time. Ordered that the troops of Connecticut when they returne from ye present expedition shall deliver the arms the Queen shall furnish them with to ye Governor of Connecticut to be kept by him for H.E. Governour Hunter's order, unless H.M. shall order them to be a part of her Royall bounty to them. Col. Dudley is desired to adjust ye accounts of Mr. Borland, H.M. agent for ye contingent charges, from the time of Col. Nicholson's last departure to the Generall's arrivall, and direct Mr. Borland to draw them fair fitt to be signed by Col. Nicholson and Col. Dudley that they may be thereupon discharged either by money of H.M. drawn out of ye offices of receipt, or by bills of Exchange home. Payment of servants attending the Congress ordered. At ye breaking up of ye Congress, Col. Nicholson desired that Col. Dudley would imediately upon the arrivall of General Hill attend him with the minutes of the Congress, the proceedings of the Generall Assembly of the Massachusets, and that Col. Saltonstall and Col. Cranston will do ye same for their severall Governments, and that Coll. Hunter will likewise give him account of his proceedings on ye land service towards the Wood Creek, etc. Agreed in Councill that if ye buisness of the Governments of Connecticut will allow it, Govr. Saltonstall is desired to bring up his own troops to Albany his presence there being judged a good service to ye Expedition or in a short time after ye march of his forces from hence. Signed. Ro. Hunter, J. Dudley, Fr. Nicholson, G. Saltonstall, Saml. Cran(s)ton. [C.O. 5, 536. No. 13.]

And now here is a link to a set of plans for a batteau dated to 1758... While these plans are again post period, we can prove that batteau were used in the period, and how much could the design really change in 40 years? Specially considering I have found other similar plans for batteau dated to the early 1800s, that do not seem to differ from the 1750s model at all.

Article and plans diagram about a 1758 batteau

And a Article and diagram of a revolution era batteau or battoe

[Dutchman]

alas to be smart enough to post a pic. oh well, come see for yourself at the blackbeard festival. she's prettier up close anyhow.