Barrels & Casks about an authentic camp

[Carlislekid]

:angry:

The word 'barrel' is commonly used as a name for the type of container which beers are delivered to the pub in. However the word is more correctly, a unit of measure. As a container, the cask was made of wood and roughly cylindrical in shape except that it 'bulged' outwards in the middle, and was used to transport not only the obvious liquids (water, beer, wine etc.) but also other commodities such as fish, sugar, flour, meat, cement, minerals, and so on. The sizes of the different casks varied with contents and, some of these different casks acquired different names.

Cask Sizes

Pin 4½ Gallons

Firkin 9 Gallons = 2 Pins

Kilderkin 18 Gallons = 2 Firkins

Barrel 36 Gallons = 2 Kilderkins

Hogshead 54 Gallons = 1½ Barrels

Puncheon 72 Gallons = 2 Barrels

Butt 108 Gallons = 2 Hogsheads

Tun 216 Gallons = 2 Butts

Ales are delivered to pubs in varying sizes of cask dependent on the amount of storage capacity and also the volume of ales which the pub can sell. A 'Pin' can easily be stored on a counter top to dispense the ales straight to the glass but the largest cask used would normally be a 'Hogshead' as anything larger becomes very difficult to move around a cellar

The firkin, a small beer cask, holding nine Imperial gallons (72 pints) would have been of traditional wooden construction (often Oak) whereas modern day casks are usually made from Aluminium.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

("The firkin, a small beer cask, holding nine Imperial gallons (72 pints) would have been of traditional wooden construction (often Oak) whereas modern day casks are usually made from Aluminium. ")

I know of some modern day casks made from Aluminium (requires a special keg coating inside to protect the beer from the Aluminium), but most of the ones I have tap'd over the years were made from Stainless Steel. Traditional Kegs were of course wood, and there are places still that use wood for Beer, though these also have been traditionaly also lined with a 'pitch' since the beer is not intended to gain any flavor from the wood as do 'spirits' and wine. Oak is traditional for some uses, but there were a lot of other woods also used for casks.

I have always thought that boxes and casks would be a natural kind of thing to have around any encampment, since wooden boxes and casks were the shipping containers for anything that could be shipped. The question is, how many and what size would be appropriate?

[Patrick Hand]

The question is, how many and what size would be appropriate?

That would depend on how much and what your are shipping......

There was an eairlier discussion here in Twill all about barrels (and another one about wooden barrel hoops vs. iron....... )

But you may want to look it up......

[capnwilliam]

I highly recommend barrels and kegs around camp. They look great, add a real note of authenticity, can be used to store things (out-of-period, and otherwise), and make great camp chairs.

I always sit on one when we Baratarians do our vignette for the tourists.

Capt. William

[The Chapman]

I am killing the last of my alcohol for this one.

And I'm not going out for more.

Oh, and everyone please feel free to tell me to shut up. I'm delighted that SOMEONE is posting here. For, like, three months, I was the thread-ender, except for sycophants looking for Mr. Foxe (No offence, Sir).

Like all history, this is pure speculation:

1) Barrels would be whatever the cooper contracted for the work would supply. They should be roughly the same volume as others; but outside dimensions may/may not be different. The barrel...contained...by 'hoops' will be roughly the same, whether wood or iron/steel (which was later).

A barrel made in Catbox-on-Avon would be, by modern standards, different from a barrel made in Dogbuttshire, yet close enough in volume to pass inspection for shipboard use (see 'monkey', nowhere below).

2) As info, CANNONS were not standardised until into the 18th century (unless I'm mistaken, correction will now ensue).

STANDARDISATION was unknown into the early 19th century. Please keep that in mind, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.

Pretty please with Culver's Double Chocolate Oreo Surprise on it.

A) The first day on the job with, we'll call him Chuck. I looked at this structural issue, and gave my opinion about what to do.

Chuck says, "I think that's a really stupid idea".

Me: "Really? Well, what's you're brilliant plan?"

-And in fact, his idea was better. And I backed down and went along. Nobody over here take me too seriously.

Some insights into my personality:

I worked with this punk kid on the high-line roofing crew. 40 feet down, easy. I made a fundamental mistake in rolling out, while moving backward, a sheet of stock. I went backward off the roof, because I was working in a 'notch', where I could see roof next to me, to my right, but the surface underneath my feet was shorter. I rolled the stock right off and went with it. I wasn't wearing my harness because I figured, what could go wrong?

That punk ran over and grabbed my sleeve, and hoisted me to safety.

I will never, never forget that moment.

I had never liked Jason. I had had to go to his parent's house, and literally drag him out of bed to go to work roofing. But he saved me from, at the very least, serious injury that time.

I had abused him verbally in the past, giving him 's---'. After the day was done, I went up to him privately, and thanked him, quite honestly, for saving me from death or the alternatives, none of which were too pretty.

It changes your perception of a person, even if they are nothing special. They save your life? They are special to you. And Jason was/is. He is still special to me. He is/was a complete jagoff, but to me, he did something that I have to appreciate. He saved my ass.

Mr. Foxe, when you're up on those sails, who do you trust? The hobbyists next to you?

Man, when I did high-altitude stuff, I HAD to trust the people around me. How does that work with sails? They're like tarps; they will blow around, and take you down if you are not careful.

I think about that, from time to time.

I saw the Windy II, and unless I completely and utterly trusted the workers around me, there is no way I would go up that mast. No effing way.

You must really, really trust the workers around you.

Bye now,

Chapman

[Coastie04]

I'll have to agree with Chapman here, though with a disclaimer: I don't know the date that barrels, etc. became standardized to their current volumes. I've spent a great deal of time at Mystic Seaport, and one of their common topics is loading a whaling ship of the 18th-19th Century. Yes, this is way out of period, but bear with me. One subject they bring up a lot is the size of barrels. Often, barrels of the time were customized by the ship's cooper to make the best use of the space below decks. They weren't even all round, but some oblong or somewhat triangular shaped, depending on the shape of the hull, where beams were, etc. Each barrel (meaning the object, not the measurement), was meant for a certain spot on the ship in order to minimize wasted space between barrels. Therefore, they were not standard sizes. They were probably approximated, but shape and size did differ.

As an aside, ship's tunnage was measured by how many tuns (as above, 216 gallons, or 6 barrels) of cargo they could hold. Well, if you go with round barrels, the tunnage is considerably less than custom shaped ones. Furthermore, the ship would be limited by weight, as some cargos are much more dense than others. Eventually, the tunnage of a ship became how much weight she could hold, and now it is commonly measured in long tons (2240 lbs, regular US measurement is the short ton, 2000 lbs). Just given the name, it lends to speculation that there were different sized tuns, which eventually led to the long/short tuns. This was post-19th C. whaling. So, my opinion, based on what information I have, is that in GAOP, it is unlikely that a standard sized barrel was set yet. Even if it was, it was probably more of an approximation.

If anyone has better evidence, as this is based of off out of period knowledge, please post it.

Coastie

[Captain Tightpants]

I know of some modern day casks made from Aluminium (requires a special keg coating inside to protect the beer from the Aluminium), but most of the ones I have tap'd over the years were made from Stainless Steel. 

Wrong. Modern casks are predominantly aluminum. Kegs are stainless steel. There's a difference between a keg and a cask. If you've found otherwise, let me know; I think you're off-base here.

Traditional Kegs were of course wood, and there are places still that use wood for Beer, though these also have been traditionaly also lined with a 'pitch' since the beer is not intended to gain any flavor from the wood as do 'spirits' and wine. 

All true. Have a cookie.

Oak is traditional for some uses, but there were a lot of other woods also used for casks. 

Really? Such as? The only different kinds of wood I've ever heard of have been different kinds of oak. Even the Romans remarked on it.

As for the shapes and sizes of cooperage, no, there weren't standard sizes. You could have two kilderkins standing right next to one another and see two completely different casks. It's still true today. Different container manufacturers will have different shapes to their proprietary containers. But 15.5 US Gallons is still an American half-barrel, no matter the shape of the keg/cask.

Thus, to say the volumes weren't standardized until X year is utter horsesh!t. A monkey could Google enough history of brewing (just one example) to give the lie to that.

In a related note: Chapman, don't bring up the steel-wood-hoop argument again. It's already been settled by people who actually know how to read.

Why am I being such a jerk to you? Because this:

Like all history, this is pure speculation

Is utterly offensive.

Like others who frequent these fora, I am a university-educated historian. History is a science with rigourous standards. History is not set in stone, but it is hardly "pure speculation". Only an ill-informed ass would make such a statement in a forum dedicated to historical study.

If you're going to equate history with speculation, do us a favor and piss off to somewhere your asshattery will not get in the way of people with brains.

[Kenneth]

Any good sources for buying barrels and such? Are they hard to make?

[kass]

The BEST period cooper I know is Five Rivers Chapmanry. Here's their website: http://www.5rivers.org/

They're in Canada but you can select American dollars (or Pounds Sterling, or Euros...) as your currency on the front page and it will convert the site.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

Example: Regarding 'herring barrels' .....""Barrels were generally made of wood imported from Scandinavia, usually spruce, although in earlier times local larch and birch wood was used.""

methinks that capt tightpants has his pants too much in a knot. A little research will show that

'white oak' is the prefered wood for many consumable liquids, but Casks, Barrels, etc, (containers made of wood used for storeing stuff in a stave hoop configuration) were made of many woods.

I do not think the rest of this thread was anything to get so hot and bothered about and I think said Capt tightpants or whatever he calls himself, was out of line in his tone. This section of the pub is for dealing with subjects that others want to learn about. Correction is fine, if backed up with fact, but I don't think we need people entering the powder room with open flame. nuff said?

[Matusalem]

I can only speak for myself, but one thing I truly miss is seeing merchants and fishermen of live blue crabs using the same oak casks that have been around hundreds of years to to store the crabs on the wharfs in Washington DC and around the Potomac before they started using these blue blow-molded polyethylene barrels. That was the 1970's for ya. Mostly all the crabbing and fishing boats were wooden, not fiberglass. we have become too modern nowadays.

[Kenneth]

Kass,

I went to http://www.5rivers.org/and it said,

"Please note: We are sorry to say we are not accepting any new cooperage orders for the foreseeable future".

Is there another good source you can recommend?

[Skull pyrate Carter]

Yeah, I noticed that too.

Then I remembered

jas-townsend.com

[Kenneth]

Whats the difference between a keg and a cask?

Theres no punch line, I'm really asking.

[Kenneth]

Good lord! I just read Capt Tightpants's response....How rude. Kass, you allow that?

Chapman,

People take Twill very seriously, so if you don't have your facts straight, you'll hear about it. Answering serious questions without evidence or knowledge to back up your answers when you're in Twill is a big no no. I know and learned from experience. It still doesn't give Capt Tighty Whitey the go ahead to tell you to p!ss off! (spit in his direction)

[Captain Tightpants]

Good lord! I just read Capt Tightpants's response....How rude. Kass, you allow that?

Chapman,

People take Twill very seriously, so if you don't have your facts straight, you'll hear about it. Answering serious questions without evidence or knowledge to back up your answers when you're in Twill is a big no no. I know and learned from experience. It still doesn't give Capt Tighty Whitey the go ahead to tell you to p!ss off! (spit in his direction)

Kenneth,

Keg and cask are often used interchangeably in the USA, though they describe totally different items.

A cask is a vessel used solely to dispense fermented liquid - most often, beer - while stored horizontally. Furthermore, the beer dispensed therefrom is conditioned in the cask, providing a live, changing beer. Google CAMRA. Casks come in different sizes than kegs. Casks still use the traditional volumes that derive from the Dutch beer measures of the 15th century - pin, pipkin, firkin, etc. - with their weird decimals of UK gallons.

A keg is also used to dispense beer. The main difference is that the beer inside is usually filtered, pasteurized or stabilized in some other way, then force-carbonated. Kegs are stood on end for dispense. Kegs come in 5, 7.75 and 15.5 US Gallon sizes.

In short, you get Coors Light in a keg, and don't often see casks except in brewpubs.

On another note, yes, I do get my panties in a bunch sometimes. It gets tiresome seeing the same question threads over and over again (is Search no longer a used function?). It gets even more tiresome when people spew the same nonsense that's been debated to death in one of the threads they didn't bother searching for. If you think I'm out of line for getting tired of that, tough. It's tiresome. I get short-tempered when people don't make the simplest effort to go find their own information, and instead come to places like this to get spoon-fed. I'm sufficiently sick of it that I no longer accept it. If you can't stomach being told an answer, don't freakin' ask the question. There are stupid questions; whoever made up that adage is an idiot.

As for giving Chapman a piece of my mind, he said something totally offensive. He completely dismissed something to which I devoted quite a lot of time, effort and money, something to which I remain devoted today, and is an accepted science with college-level departments in every major university. That gives me every right to tell him to piss off and demand an apology.

[kass]

Kass,

I went to http://www.5rivers.org/and it said,

"Please note: We are sorry to say we are not accepting any new cooperage orders for the foreseeable future".

Is there another good source you can recommend?

Oh shoot! Guess I should have read their website more closely. I knew they always have a backlog, but I had no idea they weren't shipping new orders.

We've bought barrels from Townsend. They're okay. They're not as historically accurate as anything Five Rivers makes (of course nothing Townsend sells is, really...).

You can also contact brewing supply places. Often they sell cooperage. Just make sure you ask for wooden barrels. The word "cooperage" in the brewing industry means all bulk containers. So if order a cask without specifying, you might get an aluminum one.

Try googling "oak, cask, cooperage, US" and you should come up with some links.

Regarding Captain Tightpants -- there are mitigating circumstances to his reply to The Chapman of which I am fully aware, and I will not moderate him because of that situation.

His anger is directed at one person and one person only -- and it is justified by more than you see here. My apologies to anyone else who is offended. Please do not take it personally; his words are not for you.

You're just going to have to trust me on this one, guys.

[Kenneth]

Thank you Kass and Capt for the info....Now I can start my period cooperage research. I wish there was a thread started in Twill that lists the top ten books every person striving to be authentic should own..With so many books out there now, it's hard to tell whats worth reading.

[Captain Tightpants]

It'd be nice, wouldn't it? :)

The Book Club sticky might have something of use in it, but - having never ventured in there - I dunno.

Also, determining a Top Five or even Top Ten list of books is damn near impossible. What do you include? General histories of GAoP? If you start getting more specialized than Under the Black Flag or X Marks the Spot, your list starts to assume a very large possibility of becoming completely useless for anyone with interests much different than yours.

For example, Good Historical Books [tm] about brewing are going to be utterly useless to someone interested in, say, woodwork or gunsmithing or clothing production or sailmaking or cookery (okay, maybe you've got me on that one).

But - it might not be a bad idea to poke into the Book Club sticky and see what's what. I'll do that today.

[kass]

Thank you Kass and Capt for the info....Now I can start my period cooperage research. I wish there was a thread started in Twill that lists the top ten books every person striving to be authentic should own..With so many books out there now, it's hard to tell whats worth reading.

There's a beginning of such a list here, Kenneth. I don't know how well it's being updated though.