Where can I get an

[Patrick Hand]

In Pirates of the Caribbean At Worlds End, Will Turner, Elizabeth Swan and Captain Barbossa were in Singapore...

When they sailed through the ice fields (assuming that was the North Pole) they would have gone right past Japan.

So does anyone know where I can get an Authentic Stainless Steel Pyrate Katana, just like they could have gotten if they had stopped in Japan?

[roytheodd]

It's not really unbelievable to place pirates in Japanese waters. In the early 1600s Japan was trading with English, Dutch, and Portugeuse traders through ports in southern Japan. Those vessels sailed around the southern tip of Africa, past India, through Indonesia, and into Japanese waters. Spain was running its Manila Galleons out of the Phillipines, but to get from Manila to Acapulco they first sailed up the east coast of Japan looking for a trade wind blowing east. With all of that trade and with all of that loot, it's conceivable that European pirates chased those ships. However, from everything I've read about the Warring States Period and Tokugawa's rule I get the impression that Japanese paranoia kept them from selling arms into European hands. If pirates wielded katanas they would surely be rare treasures indeed.

[Jib]

I once met a sword maker who had a sword he called an "U- Wakeo", it was shaped more like a machette with an unusal pummel shaped like an animals open mouth. He stated that the weapon was native to Japanese Pirates. I might be off on the spelling but I clearly remember this encounter since the sword was so unique.

[Abrams]

I'm not sure, but it's very possible that an average katana could've been used...

[Captain Pogue]

Mr. Hand, is that sarcasim? Slapping a katana on your hip doesn't quite seem like the Patrick Hand I've gotten to know thru your posts.

If your sincere, there is a katana on MyArmoury.com's MarketPlace for sale...

[Tartan Jack]

After seeing WHAT ELSE you've done . . .

I'd be surprised if you couldn't just get an appropriate-for-application katana and mod the hilt . . .

(I am also now curious as to how a katana fits into the "Patrick Hand Mythos")

[Rumba Rue]

I have a katana where the black cloth has been removed revealing a nice wooden handle.

I'll gladly let it go really cheap---how's $15.00 sound? (Doesn't include postage- but probably around $6 to 8 dollars)

If anyone is interested, send me a PM.

[Capt. Galvon St.Paul]

In Pirates of the Caribbean At Worlds End, Will Turner, Elizabeth Swan and Captain Barbossa were in Singapore...

When they sailed through the ice fields (assuming that was the North Pole) they would have gone right past Japan.

So does anyone know where I can get an Authentic Stainless Steel Pyrate Katana, just like they could have gotten if they had stopped in Japan?

Though it is certianly POSSIBLE that a Euro-American pirate may have somehow gotten ahold of a katana, it certainly isn't probable.

Also, there is nothing authentic about stainless swords.

I don't know if it's been said elsewhere, so I'll say it here.

Stainless steels did not exist before (IIRC) the 1950's. They are not goods for sword-length blades mostly due to a rough grain-structure. They are brittle, and prone to breakage in blades longer than 1 foot.

Stainless steels are used in cheap reproductions that are only good for hanging on a wall, or costuming. Even light swinging has been known to cause a blade to snap.

Though possible to create a properly heat-treated sword blade from stainless, it would cost cojnsiderably more than a high-carbon blade, and yet have only the slightest advantage in having to be oiled less. Stainless steel still can rust, as it contains iron. It's name is misleading, as it should more rightfully be called Stain-Resistant steel.

Traditional Katana were forged from Tamahagane, which is a sort of crucible steel. It was folded several times to spread out the impurities in the steel(Japan has poor-quality iron deposits) to even out the flaws, and were differentially hardened to achieve optimum performance from the available materials.

Due to the folding, Nihonto(true Japanese swords) will show Hada, which is a fine grain structure alone the blade, as well as a Hamon, which is a cloudy, whispy effect showing the harder edge in contrast to a softer spine.

Though truly inovative in using their available resources, Katana were certainly not the miraculous, unstopable, unbreakable, fantastic, be-all-end-all of swords that some people believe them to be. They flex minimally, are prone to chipping, and are costly to sharpen(as the whole blade needs to be repolished in the process, NO secondary edge-bevels).

Even minimally-functional, low-end production katana will run you a minimum of $150. Anything sold for less should be researched thouroughly, and even then you're better off saving for something nicer. Most wallhangers don't even bare a resemblance to traditionally made swords.

[Mad Matt]

Pat, you KNOW you should just get a ninja sword. Don't need no fancy "katana".

What with pirates and ninjas bein' mortal enemies and all....

[Jack Roberts]

And why might a pirate have a ninja sword you ask? Because he killed him of course! and kept the sword as to sell it off when he can.

[Capn_Enigma]

As this is the Plunder and not the Twill sextion, I won't go into the probability of a Japanee blade in the possession of a Christian (=European), but some folks here have funny ideas about Japanese cosmopolitanism in the 17th century.

[Patrick Hand]

Hummmm..... Yah !

An Authentic Stainless Steel Pyrate Ninja Katana.

I'll have to get one of the Uber-cool anodized black ones though...

I do like the idea of all the totally cool tricky stuff they have built into them; Boy those Japaneese sure were sneaky!

A couple of throwing stars built into the guard...

The handle wrapped with some nylon rope for scaling walls...

And hidden in the handle are some vials for poison and Magic Ninja Powders, and some waterproofed matches, a survival saw, and a compass in the pommel...

I hear you can use the scabbard as a snorkel just like they did in At Worlds End!

Dang... I'll be the coolest most authentic Pyrate to ever terrorize the Carribean...

[Captain Jim]

I smell the pungent aroma of unmitigated sarcasm in this place. And Patrick keeps shoveling it in. And in spite of what Capt. St. Paul said (all true, by the way) the adaptation of metallurgy in the best katanas made them the best blades in the world. Take that differential hardening, for instance. It creates a blade that is hard and therefore very sharp on the edge side while being softer, shock absorbing, springy and unlikely to break on the back side.

True, you have to reforge the edge after a battle but when it gets nicked it becomes, in effect, a serrated edge.

[Capt. Sterling]

True, you have to reforge the edge after a battle but when it gets nicked it becomes, in effect, a serrated edge.

And doesn't one just love those cruciform blades....

[Capt. Galvon St.Paul]

I smell the pungent aroma of unmitigated sarcasm in this place. And Patrick keeps shoveling it in. And in spite of what Capt. St. Paul said (all true, by the way) the adaptation of metallurgy in the best katanas made them the best blades in the world. Take that differential hardening, for instance. It creates a blade that is hard and therefore very sharp on the edge side while being softer, shock absorbing, springy and unlikely to break on the back side.

True, you have to reforge the edge after a battle but when it gets nicked it becomes, in effect, a serrated edge.

Not true. No sword can be considered "THE best". The Katana was good for its context, as any sword can be. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't have been used. And it was ultra-effective in other contexts, chances are it would've spread, which it didn't. Similar styles can be found in Korea, and a few in China, but other than that, nothing. And even then, there's a good argument for the Japanese swordsmithing style branching off from the Chinese upon colonization of the Japanese archipelago.

It had its advantages, but like anything else, it certainly had its weaknesses. Side-to-side flex was limited due to the differential hardening. Though he blade was quite strong laterally, it could easily be bent and ruined on the flat. They were certainly sharp, but needed a considerable amount of maintenence to keep it that way.

Like I said before, they are easily chipped. This isn't something that is "reforged". A sword doesn't get "reforged" without having to completely recycle the blade material. Life isn't like Lord of the Rings. It's possible to forge-weld a sword broken in half, but it still must be completely re-heattreated, and remains with a significant stress-point. If a chip forms in the edge, it must be polished out. Material must be removed along both planes, until the sword is sharpened and the chip is gone. If the chip is left alone, the sword will break. If the chip is too deep, or there isn't enough active hamon left in the blade, the sword must be retired.

After careful(and expensive) polishing, the sword required a new scabbard to be made, as the geometry of the blade has been altered.

Also, the edge was not left serrated. Serrations are found on FEW swords, all of them being from the middle-east that I've seen. Serrations create stress-points, which would DRASTICALLY weaken Japanese style swords due to their form of heat-treatment.

Though it is known for a stone to be run over an edge to modify the sharpness(in actuality causing micro-serrations and allowing the edge to bite into cloth slightly better), full serrations don't offer any sort of advantage in battle.

Serrations are made for sawing, not chopping. Even the draw-cut of a curved sword relies mostly upon the strike and smooth geometry of the edge to cleave through material. True serrations would only help if your enemy had no problem with sitting still and allowing you to saw on them.

[Captain Jim]

Now, now I said naught about reforging a broken blade: might as well melt it down and start over. But it is possible to forge-weld material into the edge and file/polish back to the original profile. Then of course the whole would have to be retempered in the original fashion. I'll see if I can find a picture of a rapaired edge. If anyone else has one, please post.

And I suppose "best" is a subjective term, so I'll give you that one as far as blade design is concerned. A lot of what is useful and "best" for any individual goes to national prejudices, training and philosophy that results in differing styles. Such as preferring that your blade bend rather than break.

[Capt. Galvon St.Paul]

A correctly made blade should neither break, nor bend. Like the leaf-springs on the bottom of a car, it should flex(to a good degree), and return true.

The way Japanese swords were made, this wasn't really an option. Due to the materials, and traditions to some extent, it was preferable to have a less-flexible blade. A misake during a cut(even on light practice materials) could chip or warp even a flawless piece work.

As for the edge-reforging, I've never heard of this. If you have proof, I'd love to see it. It would certainly be problematic, having to carefully forge in the edge material(sometimes being a higher grade steel than the spine, such as in San Mai construction methods). Then the geometry of that area would have to be reestablished, then the whole heat-treating process repeated.

Another problem lies in the forgewelding itself. Forgewelding results in material loss, and carbon loss. By reforging a piece into the edge, you stand a VERY good chance of softening that spot.

Generally, when a sword bent/broke, it usually continued life as a shorter blade. It is very well known in the Nihonto community that sword were shortened, and there are several signs that can indicate this in an antique.

[Captain Jacob Badger]

'Capt. Galvon St.Paul' ''As for the edge-reforging, I've never heard of this. If you have proof, I'd love to see it.''...........well said.

[John Maddox Roberts]

It's not unthinkable. In the National Gallery in London many years ago I saw a 17th century Dutch still life; flowers in a vase on a table with a musical instrument or two and -- a Japanese wakizashi (short sword). Of course the Dutch were trading in japan and a wak would be easy enough to obtain, they weren't regarded with the respect accorded a katana. Even a lower-class person could own one so they could easily be sold to a foreigner.

There were times when Japanese blades were sold in China and elsewhere in Asia, usually not of the high quality of samurai blades but perfectly fine fighting weapons. They were usually sold unmounted and furnished to local taste where they were purchased.

During the reign of the dictator Hideyoshi the Christians were expelled from Japan, and many ended their days in the Philippines. The samurai among them often worked as mercenaries for the Spanish so katanas just might have gone to sea by that route.

But if a pirate got hold of such a sword and liked it, the first thing he would have dome would have been to have it rehilted in European style, just as European blades were rehilted in Asia and Africa. He'd have wanted to use it like a cutlass. The idea of learning a completely different style of swordsmanship would have had no appeal to him.

[Captain Jim]

'Capt. Galvon St.Paul' ''As for the edge-reforging, I've never heard of this. If you have proof, I'd love to see it.''...........well said.

From Hank Reinhardt in an article on the supposed invincabiliy of Japanese blades:

"I have been assured, frequently in fact, that Japanese blades are so strong and tough that they never break, nick or bend. Well, they break, they nick, and they bend. They frequently nick quite badly. Damascus steel is a superior steel, or it can be when done by a superb smith. But even a superior steel is still steel and will respond like steel. One sad fact is that the harder the steel, the more likely it is to chip and nick. A softer metal will bend, flatten or otherwise distort. When this happens, it is relatively easy to pound or file a new cutting edge. When a chip leaves a gap, not much can be done. A piece can be reforged into the blade, but this also requires that the blade be retempered." Italics mine.

Still looking for a museum photograph. My sensei had a katana that had two such repairs performed over 300 years earlier. Unfortunately that gentleman is long dead and the blade went back to Okinawa.

Mind you that I'm not saying that this was a common practice, only that it was done. It would have been more common on "important" or ancestral weapons that had been damaged. The story behind the damage to my sensei's sword was that it had been damaged (twice, on seperate occasions) by one of his ancestors acting as kaishaku in seppuku ceremonies. Apparently the blade had chipped on the neck bones of the deceased.

[Capn_Enigma]

Thank you for posting that, Jim. The "invincible katana myth" is one of the most persistant and annoying urban legends that exist, particularly since movies like "Kill Bill" et al. People just don't seem to realize that even Japanese steel has to obey certain laws of physics.

[Tartan Jack]

WHAT!!!!!!

You mean a katana can't chop a claymore in twain?????

I think the katana thing has more to do with the modern mythologizing of Japanese history and legend than anything historical.

(I am curious as to Hand's original intent . . . However, this thread has been VERY interesting.)

[Capt. Galvon St.Paul]

I think the katana thing has more to do with the modern mythologizing of Japanese history and legend than anything historical.

Actually, the pedestal upon which the Katana has been placed is nothing new.

There are several stories of Japanese soldiers during WWII completely ruining priceless heirloom blades.

Toshi(swordsmiths) were hired by the government to travel to the front lines to repair swords. I forget the specific names, and I wish I could find where I read the account, but one smith was approached by a soldier complaining that his sword (a masterpiece) must've been fake because it had broken.

Of course, the sword was only broken after said soldier had attacked a piece of thick, steel, armor-plating(on a tank or something). He had even made a significant cut into it, but the sword was destroyed.

The smith was horrified, quoted that such a work of art had "...died a dog's death."

My point is, whether it was due to Japan's egotistical over-nationalism or otherwise, the Katana has been heavily glorified for quite some time.

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As for the edge-reforging, this has really got my interest. Especially since perfection is rather important to the Japanese(particularly with high-end swords worth ownership by the Samurai class), so a high-end weapon would certainly lose something after such a procedure. No matter how good the smith was, there would always be visible proof that the damage was done. It couldn't as easily be hidden as filled Mekugi-Ana(holes in the tang for the bamboo set-pins), being under the hilt.

[Tartan Jack]

WW2, STILL modern in the context that the "samuari" period effectively ended in the 1870s, or so (NOT actually any of my main areas of interest, but the basis of "The Last Samuari"). The mythologizing was in full swing by 1900, once the "real thing" was dead and no longer a threat.

Actually much like piracy as well.

The emperor and other leaders utilized bushido and other lore, applied to a MUCH larger context than it had been in the REAL past, to formulate the "modern" Japanese "character" that was so implanted by WW2.

(sorry for any misspellings, I tend to so that on these forums and have a problem remembering HOW to spell "samuari")

[Patrick Hand]

See... the problem with folded steel is it is not as strong as stainless....

chips and such on the blade.....

That's why the authentic Pyrate Ninja katanas are made outta stainless Steel....

Then anodized uber-cool black......with the super authentic painted on harmon line..... just to show it's "real"..........

And everyone knows that a Katana can cut through a machine gun barrel.....

the Japaneese did that all the time in WWII.........(well untill we nuked them...)

The Katana is the best sword ever made....

So of course.... any Pyrate worth his salt would have one........

Last weekend I went to the Northern California Pyrate Festival. and saw three people with katanas.....and one of them had one that was over 5 foot long ... WOW......

So with the painting of a japanees knife that the Dutch had... and three people with katanas at a Pyrate Faire.... dang... you gotta know they are periodly accurate.....

And don't forget..... all the cool stuff that a period acurate Pyrate Ninja Katana has hidden in the handle..........