Soliciting opinions on two swords

[roytheodd]

Ahoy! I'm looking for opinions on a sword. I currently own a sword that was used a prop in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. The thing is it's bothersome because I'm a lefty and it's hilt is a righty, so I want to find something more lefty-friendly. I was seeking opinions on the following two swords as a replacement to my existing one:

Classic Pirate Cutlass from Dead Men Tell No Tales and

Pirates Captain Hanger fro Museum Replicas

My goal is to get a cutlass that looks about right and that I can wield, even though I doubt I'll ever use it for swordplay. I am also hoping to keep it to less than a few hundred dollars in hopes that Santa might forge me one for Christmas later this year. Do these swords fly as relatively period? Does anyone have any experience with either one?

[Abrams]

I'm definitely not the best person to answer, but, aesthetically, I would choose the second one. I've no idea if it's period or not, however.

Let's see your current one, mate!

[roytheodd]

Let's see your current one, mate!

I'll snap a photo tonight from when I'm home from work and post it up. It's not an especially detailed sword, but I like it.

[Captain Pogue]

roytheodd,

Besides the bevy of piratical knowledge floating around here you might want to check out www.MyArmoury.com. They've got a lot of reviews on swords as well as the people that have had their hands on just about all things bladed. They know more about weapons than someone should and someone is bound to have had one of the swords in question.

Check out Callenish Gunner's (sp?) posts, he sells guns and swords that are pretty much period. He also has pictures of his wares in a post regarding PIP in the Events section.

Pogue

[Gentleman of Fortune]

First off...

welcome aboard roy! Glad to have you here, and thanks for asking for opinions on these two swords!

Second

You know, I had absolutely no idea that there was a debate about Pirates vs Ninjas.... makes me kind of wonder where I have been for the last decade....

Anywhoo....

To your question.

I have spent most of my time researching the various aspects of the Golden Age of Piracy (GAoP) and less so with the areas surrounding that time frame. But regardless, pirates have been infesting waterways as long as... well, you get the picture, so your question is best answered if we have an idea of the time frame you are trying to portray.

IF

You just want a sword to wear to a pirate festival or renfaire, I say go with the one that you like the best and if its a toss up, go with the cheaper one.

If you want one to be part of a "living history" impression, that is, as part of a costume that tries to closely imitate actual historical pirates, then I would avoid both.

The "Classic Pirate Cutlass" from DMTNT embodies what most people think of when they hear the word "cutlass". The problem is that these style elements really don't come into play until around the 1760s when they are seen on various horseman's sabers. The Classic Pirate Cutlass itself, seems to be a direct copy of a 1770s English pattern. So if you were doing a Revolutionary War Privateer, it would be great, but for GAoP, its too late.

The Pirate Captain Hanger from MR is closer to the GAoP time frame than the sword above, and the exact date this sword comes into use is debatable, but its safe to say that it is a modification of the types of English hangers that are usually dated somewhere between 1725-1760. So depending on how liberal your definition of the dates for the GAoP are, you could at least make a case for this sword. It would be perfect of F&I and later impressions though.

There has been a lot of discussion about "what swords are good for GAoP" at Black John's Pirate Brethren forum, and if interested, you should probably check that out.

Good Luck

GOF

[Barbossa II]

I vote for the Hanger!

Barbossa II

[roytheodd]

Here are the shot of my current sword (pardon the poor photos, I had to snap them on my way out the door this morning):

My short term goal is really to round out the costume of a Ren Faire/Halloween pirate. My long term goal is to get a really authentic 1660s costume going. However, I can't sew nor make anything else for lack of skill and the finances seem easier to start with some of what I have and work my way up the ladder. I have a Ren Faire peasant shirt and some britches, both of which make relatively good pirate wear. I also bought a pair of Gurkees because custom boots are out of my league (and my calves are mighty). Therefore for now I'm a budget pirate and for that my costume will be rather Hollywood. Once I get a better feel for my pirate side and I'm willing to learn new skills or start saving money for the good goods I'll start switching over. I think, too, that authentic period costumes don't really smack of pirate to most folks. For now I want something I can wear and leave no doubt that I'm a pirate.

@ Captain Pogue: that website is overwhelming, but full of great info. Thank you very much for the link.

[Captain Pogue]

No problem. I was looking for a good period sword before I found the Pub. I asked a couple questions and got an essay on swords of the period and forges that make them. Gentleman of Fortune might belong over there too with his knowledge of period weapons...

[Patrick Hand]

<SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC>

You know, I had absolutely no idea that there was a debate about Pirates vs Ninjas.... makes me kind of wonder where I have been for the last decade....

All you had to do was read the Post in PLUNDER and BEYOND PYRACY....

Then you'd know all about Pyrates vs Ninjas...... (Pyrates Win.......)

and Authentic Period Ninja Pyrates.....

OK.... back on topic.......

[roytheodd]

No problem. I was looking for a good period sword before I found the Pub. I asked a couple questions and got an essay on swords of the period and forges that make them. Gentleman of Fortune might belong over there too with his knowledge of period weapons...

What manner of sword did you get and where'd you get it, if I may ask?

[Captain Pogue]

Darkwood armory Dussage 16th Century Sinclair hilt. It's not current GAoP weaponry but it is appropriate. I haven't got it yet, but dealing with them has been very pleasent. They are quite affordable and have a good reputation amongst the SCA re-enactors.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Maybe i'm a little overzealous in offering my two cents....

So sometimes its like I'm the Johnny Appleseed of two cents scattering....

But, as it is a forum, and folks do ask questions, I feel compelled to answer.

And at the end of the day, its best to do your own research and ask as many questions as you possibly can.

That being said

Roy.

I think that the sword you already own serves the immediate purpose that you have. Now I can understand anyones need to buy something, as movement is progress, but if your intention is to eventually move towards authenticity, either of those swords will move you between $90 and $160 backwards in that goal.

Or in other words, why buy a late 1770s sword, to replace an 1830s sword, with the intention of doing 1690-1720?

But, I feel your pain, as there are not many alternatives out there (less than $300), that fit the bill.

Digressing somewhat, where are you located? While a lot of pirate re-enactors are one man "shows", there really are a lot of benefits to joining a group. The group you associate with, could also have an impact on what kind of sword you buy.

I know that Black John's Pirate Brethren out of MD/PA/VA do a lot of fencing/fighting amongst themselves (for the public and private events). If you join a group like that, it would behoove you to find out which swords they use so that you can have a compatible weapon.

If you lucky, you are in the area of Amanjiria, who has few men and hot women in his crew.

Good luck, and keep us abreast of any developments!

GoF

[roytheodd]

Digressing somewhat, where are you located?  While a lot of pirate re-enactors are one man "shows", there really are a lot of benefits to joining a group.  The group you associate with, could also have an impact on what kind of sword you buy.

I'm in North Hollywood/Burbank, California. I work about three blocks from a forge that bangs out swords fot the movie studios too, but they only do custom work and that ain't cheap.

Eliminating the $300 price cap, where should I look for a realistic 1660s sword? Also, please note that while my current sword fits my costume style-wise, it's made for a right-handed person, whereas I'm left-handed. I didn't think about it when I bought it. That's my real reason for wanting a different blade. However, as you said, if I'm going to replace it with something I might as well be making proper forward progress.

[Captain Pogue]

Roy

Here is what I got from Mark Millman from MyArmory when I was in your boat, er ship...

"Your big problem here is that few manufacturers seem to make swords from the period in which I

suspect you're most interested--the Golden Age of Piracy, 1680-1710 or so--and custom work will

be beyond your price range. I've come up with a few possibilities, however, which I've listed from

least to most suitable.

Museum Replicas Limited

http://www.museumreplicas.com/

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCa.../p...anger.aspx

You know them; you're conflicted about them. Still, the consensus is that their quality has been im-

proving, although there can be some inconsistency. The Pirate Captain's Hanger is their knockoff

of Johnny Depp's sword from Pirates of the Caribbean, but it's actually one of the more accurate

and attractive items they offer--my biggest problem with MRL is that as their products have gotten

tougher and more durable, they seem increasingly to be throwing historical accuracy out the win-

dow. But this looks like a pretty good product (note that I haven't seen one in person, so I can't

speak from experience), it comes with a scabbard, and it's only $160 plus shipping. The two biggest

issues are that it's basically the same as many of the military hangers that the next choice offers

(and which you can often find for less), only with an antique finish rather than a shiny new one, and

that everyone and his brother will have one of these.

G. Gedney Godwin

http://www.gggodwin.com/

http://www.gggodwin.com/swords.htm

G. Gedney Godwin are primarily an eighteenth-century sutlery, supplying French and Indian War

and American Revolutionary re-enactors, so most of their swords are from thirty or more years after

your period. However, a lot of the styles are very similar to those of the late seventeenth and early

eighteenth centuries. I'd particularly recommend the Monster Head Hanger [#661]; if you cut off the

guard's side branch, and perhaps replace the grip, you'll have a pretty good, and fairly distinctive,

cutlass.

Armour Class

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17...ntury_Main2.htm

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17...17Century_8.htm

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17...17Century_7.htm

Armour Class are in Scotland, so shipping may prove costly, but their prices are very reasonable,

which may make up for it.

I recommend some variant of the 17C7 17th Century Shell & Ring Guard Hanger, which is the sec-

ond item on their 17th Century Page 2 . Armour Class offer 26" (66 cm) and 30" (76 cm) blades in

sharp and "re-enactment" (meaning re-enactor society combat blunt) varieties, single-edge (which

they call "back edge") and double-edge, and fullered or diamond-section. You'll want the 66 cm

back edge fullered blade, though I'm not sure whether the sharp or the blunt is better for your pur-

poses. I think all the photos are of the blunts. Note that their blades are straight and not curved,

which may not appeal to you, though it's not incorrect for weapons of the type you have in mind.

The item page shows several examples with small shells turned toward the blade, but you should

ask for one or two large shells turned toward the pommel.

You might also consider the 17C6 17th Century Tower Hanger, which is the first item listed on 17th

Century Page 2 but appears under the last link above, especially if you can get them to make it with-

out the branch that connects the side knuckle-guard to the front knuckle-guard. You'll want the same

blade as you'd get on the Shell & Ring Guard Hanger. Even with that modification, it might be a bit

early in style for you, though it wouldn't be absurd or inappropriate.

Darkwood Armory

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/baskethiltedswords.shtml

Darkwood Armory are very well known and respected among both re-enactors and historical martial

artists. Their prices are on the high side of your range, but it's still worth considering them.

The most obvious choice is their German Baskethilt (1700) known as a "Sinclair Hilt", second to

last on the Basket Hilted Swords page. Although it's out of your price range as shown, if you get it

with the Dusagge blade and the hammered finish, it will drop to $425--waiting a little longer to save

up the difference is certainly an option I'd seriously consider.

There is another, and perhaps better, option: Get the Dusagge blade with a simpler, and presum-

ably less expensive, hilt. I'd suggest that you ask Scott, the armorer, to make you something like

this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_odf_hanger.html

Other examples are here:

http://www.olddominionforge.com/swords.html

(Old Dominion Forge are well out of your price range--I think their prices start between $600 and

$800--but their shell-guard hangers and cutlasses are exactly the right sort of thing for a pirate im-

pression. The examples on the pages I cite just above should be illustrative.)

With luck, he'll be able to make you something similar that will be within your preferred range, es-

pecially if you stick with the hammered finish. "

[roytheodd]

After much reading on the subject today, and after much reflecting on the sentiments expressed here, and the examination of my personal motives I ask this: what if I sought an 18th century Golden Age sword rather than a 17th century sword, would that make a difference in selection and price?

By the way, you all totally rule.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

what if I sought an 18th century Golden Age sword rather than a 17th century sword, would that make a difference in selection and price?

Unfortunately, it would not have much of an effect.

First, lets define the GAoP. You could make arguments for as early as 1670s to as late as 1730. If you google pirate captains, you should get some dates for when the were active.

http://www.privateerdragons.com/pirates_famous.html

The big hitters in the pirate world (Blackbeard, Rackham, Vane, England) that we associate with the GAoP are mostly active from around 1715-1722 (there are exceptions) so for sake of argument, lets say 1690-1725.

At this point in time, fashions, in general, are moving from Baroque to Rococo and the GAoP is the nexus where these styles wax and wane.

Adding to that, at this point in time, there are very few Naval specific weapons for personal use. In most cases, we see swords made for "land service" and fire arms made for Europe's Armies being incorporated for use at sea (often with no modification).

So, in my opinion, we don't see a big shift in styles of weapons, or weapons that were made "Specifically" for sea use, till after the GAoP (again there are exceptions.

So a sword that was good (like a clamshell hanger) that was made in 1690, is good through the entire GAoP. And swords made in 1715 still reflect the styling of the pre-1700 swords.

And the whole time frame is like some black hole for reproductions as most of the market (up to now) has been for F&I and Rev war weapons that are too late for our period (but our period's stuff is still good for F&I and Rev War, go figure).

Lots of generalizations, but I hope it helped.

Greg aka GoF

[roytheodd]

Darkwood Armory

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/baskethiltedswords.shtml

Darkwood Armory are very well known and respected among both re-enactors and historical martial

artists. Their prices are on the high side of your range, but it's still worth considering them.

The most obvious choice is their German Baskethilt (1700) known as a "Sinclair Hilt", second to

last on the Basket Hilted Swords page. Although it's out of your price range as shown, if you get it

with the Dusagge blade and the hammered finish, it will drop to $425--waiting a little longer to save

up the difference is certainly an option I'd seriously consider.

There is another, and perhaps better, option: Get the Dusagge blade with a simpler, and presum-

ably less expensive, hilt. I'd suggest that you ask Scott, the armorer, to make you something like

this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_odf_hanger.html

After sleeping on it (and having a really cool dream about it too), I have decided to take the quoted advice. I will save my loot and possibly spoil myself with a new sword by year's end. I do have yet another question though: what about a scabbard? Do swords come with them, do I need to have one made, or do I dangle a naked blade from my baldric? If I need to have one made, where do I look?

[Captain Pogue]

Most nice swords won't come with scabbards. Scott Wilson at Darkwood Armory is making a ascabbard for mine. The other option is Triton Scabbard Works www.tritonworks.com. They have some really nice looking scabbards and are quite affordable. The only drawback was when I checked he was back logged by nine months. Then you send him your sword to make the scabbard and he'll get it back to ya. I was too impatient to wait for that. You'll probably want a scabbard for protection, for the blade, you, and others. Also legal issues if you go to a faire or festival.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

You kind of stumped me with the left handed thing...

Have you thought about a smallsword?

Cold Steel has a decent one and its just a tad over $225

http://www.trueswords.com/cold-steel-small...sms-p-1965.html

GoF

[Iron Bess]

You might also try the American Fencing Supply site.

http://www.amfence.com/html/armoury.html

You can custom make weapons that are right nice, a medium price AND that stand up to hard battle if needs be.

An associate did get a left handled hilt from them and then got to choose her blade.

Just another option lad

[John Maddox Roberts]

Because of the movies most people have the impression that all cutlasses must have curved blades, but many authentic specimens have straight blades, though almost always single-edged. some were cut down from longer horsemen's swords. Look around under "hunting swords." These were hangars usually with straight blades and often elegantly hilted. Handedness only becomes a question when half-baskets or sometimes side-rings are involved. A plain hilt with a knucklebow works fine in either hand. So does one with a full basket. And don't, ever, stick a bare blade through your belt and walk around with it, even if it isn't sharpened. Get a sheath. Somebody will sure as hell walk into it and you'll have a lawsuit on your hands.

[Hawkyns]

Just another quibble here. it depends on how authentic you are working towards, but there are very few accurate left handed blades. You just did not get to be left handed. Even to the begining of the last century the attempt was made to force everyone to be right handed. So it might be to your advantage to learn to fight right handed and carry your blade that way.

Hawkyns

[Rusty Barrels]

I'm no sword expert at all but I like my captains hanger from mr. I also have the pirates companion from them, between the two the hanger is alot lighter and can be used in either hand besides that, I like the look . If you are left handed then a basket type like the companion may not work for you.