Virginia Tech

[Rumba Rue]

I'm sorry, but I have to get this off my chest and out to whatever...

First I feel such sadness, that something so senseless as killing 32 people that had such promise for our world, should affect me so... I didn't know anyone who went or goes there...

Second the fact that states like Virginia have no gun laws as to purchasing just angers me....

Tonight I will be lighting a special candle for the comfort of those who have passed, and for those of who grieve....and for my own comfort....

[Red-Handed Jill]

Perhaps this will galvanize the government to do something about this, such as pass some sort of gun law.

On NPR today, they interviewed one of the professors who had written an editorial about this. The story that struck me the most was about the 72-year-old engineering professor who sacrificed himself so that his students could get to safety. This was a guy who had survived the Holocaust. It just makes no sense.

On other stations, they interviewed people from the college and psychology professionals and they all kept saying the same thing over and over and over, that the students had to heal and they kept going on about the students. Not one person - not one - mentioned the teachers and what they went through and what they might need. And it's an unwritten rule (unwritten for teachers of adults, at least) that if anything were to happen, the teacher's job is to protect their students, regardless of the ages or physical abilities of those students. So they are already potentially putting their lives on the line. And in recent years, there have been concerns about students shooting their teacher because they didn't like the grade they got.

I would never, ever begrudge anyone the support they needed, but as a former professor, that omission got to me.

[Caraccioli]

Gun law? *Shudder* It is tragic, but that is no reason to give up more of our rights. Doing so will not prevent future events like this, I can almost guarantee you that. It will just change the pattern some.

Rather than listening to NPR (which almost has the decency to admit their bias - but not quite), go back and read the history of our country. We have more to be afraid of from the government banning guns (and becoming the sole legal possessors of them) than we do from not doing so.

I dated a girl (sort of, I guess) who was at Virginia Tech. In fact, I met her there. (It's a nice campus.) She wound up working for IBM and buying a green Jag. She was the sort of girl who would do that.

[Duchess]

Its not the damn guns folks!

What is truly striking to me is that buildings full of people, people on the scene, at hand allowed one guy with one gun to kill that many. Even if he were a crack shot he'd still have to reload at least twice (from what the stories say). Stop looking to institutions (police, government schools etc) to protect people in an immediate and important sense. This event was a tragedy but please don't use it as fodder for eradication crusades. Taking things away from people doesn't stop them from being crazy. It isn't guns, movies, video games or television that caused this to happen. Use this as an opportunity not to limit ourselves but to expand our knowledge.

[hurricane]

First off, rarely do people who do such vile things go through the regular purchasing process. They buy them on the streets. So don't go on a gun control frenzy because of this. It appears he picked it up from a dealer this time but most violent crime perpetrators don't. So move on.

Second, blame a culture that has been raised by parents who think a video game console should be their babysitter. They site endlessly acting out violence complete with blood and guts to the point where reality and fantasy blend together. They're not taught about the sanctity of human life, about problem resolution, anger management -- nothing by their absentee parents.

I'm sick of the "village raises a child" mentality. Good parents raise good kids. Absent parents and those with poor parenting skills who don't give a damn about where there kids are at 3 a.m. are the problem.

Finally, I see video of deer in headlights cops. I have a police friend who says that you hear the first shot you rush the building and follow the sound. Eliminate the shooter at all costs so he stops killing. The officers there had two hours to get their act together and still couldn't protect 31 people who didn't necessarily have to die after the first two if they had all stopped standing around and went building to building when they could have made a difference.

Nough said...

-- Hurricane

[michaelsbagley]

I always hate citing statistics like this, because it winds up upsetting people more than making them think.

About 1 out of every 200,000 deaths in Canada are gun related.

About 8 out of every 200,000 deaths in the USA are gun related.

(Like all stats, these are a few years old, but probably not greatly changed)

Those are ratios, total populations are not a factor in ratios, so the argument that the USA has a population about 10 or 11 times greater than Canada does not hold water for the comparison. The main difference between Canada and the US that is a factor here, gun laws. Pistols are pretty much illegal in Canada (special permits with more red tape than is ever worth it can make a pistol legal in Canada), rifles are legal, but fairly regulated.

Sorry folks, anyone who states that gun laws don't factor are kidding themselves. Stricter gun laws won't end this type of tragic event, but they can make an impact, and change the frequency of these types of events occurring. I am all for the freedom of responsible gun ownership, but I can also feel genuine in saying that stricter government regulation and tighter gun laws can be a factor in reducing gun related violence and crime.

[Blackfoot]

If I can only talk to these idiots before they kill.

My advice to them..."go somewhere where there is no people, take a deep breath, and just kill yourself. If you get scared on doing yourself in, give me the gun and I would do it for you as I laugh when you drop to the ground."

Why is it that these cowards wish to take people with them when they go on these rampages. I will never understand...

[Caraccioli]

Those are ratios, total populations are not a factor in ratios, so the argument that the USA has a population about 10 or 11 times greater than Canada does not hold water for the comparison. The main difference between Canada and the US that is a factor here, gun laws. Pistols are pretty much illegal in Canada (special permits with more red tape than is ever worth it can make a pistol legal in Canada), rifles are legal, but fairly regulated.

Sorry folks, anyone who states that gun laws don't factor are kidding themselves.

Who, so far, has tried to make this argument you're attempting to refute?

With greater risk, comes greater responsibility. However, greater perceived safety does not produce lesser risk. In fact, it produces greater, although somewhat hidden, risks. The US was founded, as much as any country in history has been, on assuming personal responsibility. This is not to lose sight of the victims of cowards who refuse to take any responsibility for themselves, but neither should it be license to take away some of the few rights that Homeland InSecurity hasn't managed to snatch.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

[PyratePhil]

This is the posting I made on one of my martial arts boards on Monday...

Today news came of the horrible massacre at Virginia Tech - 32 people shot by a lone gunman, who then took his own life.

While I understand emotions are made raw by events such as this, I believe it is up to us a martial artists to learn from them and apply that knowledge to ourselves, our friends and family and our students.

First thing - there were reportedly 2 separate shooting incidents, 2 hours apart. How did the alarm go out?

By email.

First big mistake.

There is video from a student standing/crouching in a doorway. The video was taken with his phone, and you can hear the gunshots. Toward the end of the 30-second or so clip, he appears to be moving in the direction of the gunshots, stops and says "whoa!", then turns and retreats.

A professor took the time to set up a video camera pointing out a window in an attempt to capture the action.

There was, as is usual at times like this, mass confusion. But the blaming and the promises of inquiries have already started.

Now for my first impression:

How the HELL can you have time, and enough concern, to record videos of this stuff? Isn't there a shred of humanity left, of wanting to perhaps HELP the victims, instead of recording their deaths and maybe selling the resulting footage to CNN?

Doesn't anyone have the balls to fight back against a lone gunman? At one point, the gunman entered a classroom, shot the professor in the head, then started randomly(?) shooting. One student said they all ducked under the desks and hit the floor. Now if this was a class of (I'm supposing) at least a dozen students, WHY couldn't they all gang-rush this guy? Yes, some may have been shot - but isn't that better than laying down and waiting for the bullet with your name on it?

And where's that security expert now? The one that wanted to teach the passive acceptance mode of dealing with gunmen in schools? Remember after the Pennsylvania Dutch school shooting - some guy came out and, I believe, actually got a contract to teach a few thousand students that they should meekly follow the orders of a gunman and never resist, because - who knows? - it might make him mad.

I'm sorry, but this really has me irked. I see similar (but of course, not as tragic) events happening everyday, even in the sleepy little burg that I live in. People just don't have IT anymore. We've "evolved" into a society of vidiots - we'd rather film a fellow humans death than try to help them. We rely on email and cellphones to get the breaking news about a nutjob on a shooting rampage. Our noses are buried so deeply in phones and computers (and yes, I'm one of them) that we can't SEE straight anymore. WHO sends out emails to warn of a gunman?

Obviously, the staff of VA Tech.

The more I see of events like this, both the mental disturbances of the gunman and the apathetic responses of the victims, the more I just want to keep going higher up the mountain to get away from what is laughingly called "civilization".

[michaelsbagley]

With greater risk, comes greater responsibility. However, greater perceived safety does not produce lesser risk. In fact, it produces greater, although somewhat hidden, risks. The US was founded, as much as any country in history has been, on assuming personal responsibility. This is not to lose sight of the victims of cowards who refuse to take any responsibility for themselves, but neither should it be license to take away some of the few rights that Homeland In Security hasn't managed to snatch.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Who, so far, has tried to make this argument you're attempting to refute?

No one has, but every time I have cited these types of stats in forums similar to this in the past, someone has tried to refute that... But your point is well taken, it was small of me to assume someone would, and I am sorry for that.

The US was founded, as much as any country in history has been, on assuming personal responsibility.

And someone was able to win a large financial settlement against a large corporation for sticking a HOT coffee down their pants because they were being responsible for themselves. And this can lead to TONS of other citations of successful lawsuits for personal injury where the plaintiff was obviously responsible for their own actions?

I do not mean to scoff at your rebuttal, but I am very prone to playing the Devil's advocate, and I beg that you do not take my doing so personally.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

and the sentiments that come with this are a matter of individual philosophy, and personal belief, not worth debating as the debates tend go in circles and it is easiest and best to politely agree to disagree.

Ultimately my comments were the first step in diverting this thread away from it's true purpose, and I would like to apologize to everyone for that. Regardless of differing personal views on gun laws or philosophy or whatever, this is a tragic event, and the sense of loss and confusion on what happened is going to be massive, please forgive my diatribe, it was misplaced and probably has not place here.

[Capt. Sterling]

delete

[Caraccioli]

The US was founded, as much as any country in history has been, on assuming personal responsibility.

And someone was able to win a large financial settlement against a large corporation for sticking a HOT coffee down their pants because they were being responsible for themselves. And this can lead to TONS of other citations of successful lawsuits for personal injury where the plaintiff was obviously responsible for their own actions?

Yes, there are many examples of people not shirking their responsibility. So should those who do take responsibility (and I suggest that they are the majority) be punished for those who don't?

I do not mean to scoff at your rebuttal, but I am very prone to playing the Devil's advocate, and I beg that you do not take my doing so personally.

Wouldn't dream of it. I think an open discussion of the issues is important and often increases interest in a forum, myself. (Although (in general - not talking to Michael specifically here) I always look for what we think of as facts to back up opinions...you know what they say about opinions... )

[michaelsbagley]

My bad, the stats I cited were very wrong....

It was supposed to be 1 death per 200,000 Canadians (not 1 death in every 200,000 deaths as I stated). etc.

Anyway the source for anyone interested is this CBC news article.

CBC News Article

I agree with you completely Caraccioli, the wrongful acts of the few should not take away the liberties of the many. But I think that line of thinking leads only to the road of debating what liberties one needs versus what liberties one wants. Most discussion regarding needs versus wants also usually result ending up coming down to a core difference in philosophy.

[Duchess]

it would be interesting to see the actual source of the data. Often times in those stats, suicides and self defenses are included as "gun related deaths".

So gun related deaths aren't all bad.

[Duchess]

and Phil I'm almost shocked to say this but it looks like we finally agree on something...

[Caraccioli]

I agree with you completely Caraccioli, the wrongful acts of the few should not take away the liberties of the many. But I think that line of thinking leads only to the road of debating what liberties one needs versus what liberties one wants. Most discussion regarding needs versus wants also usually result ending up coming down to a core difference in philosophy.

Which inevitably leads us back to absolute truth (and the lack thereof) and worlds created by individual perception. But we're in the wrong thread, aren't we?

Circles, circles, everything describes circles...

(BTW, Duchess reminds me that different local police reports are notoriously difficult to compare and aggregate. What one precinct considers one thing, another does not. This I learned when reading my books on how statistics are improperly used. Perhaps I will dredge that book up when I get home tonight. However, I do know that one of the reasons we have guns here in the US to protect us from the centralization of power in the government. Those who do not know their history...)

[Rumba Rue]

I can't believe this has turned into a debate about gun control.....

People, I've shot guns at a shooting range, I understand black powder, I understand the animal hunter providing food for the family, so I do understand the other side of the coin.

HOWEVER, that's not what I was really posting about. I posted because I have this sadness in my heart and I needed to release it.

Please mellow out everyone....

[Matusalem]

First, my heart goes out to the family, and friends of The VT students whose lives were unfortunately cut short.

Without getting political over debate over gun laws, procedures, politics. As far as I'm concerned, I am both a conservative and a liberal....and yet I am neither.

Perhaps the shooter was someone who never felt any love or compassion in his life, perhaps any love from his own family. All I can say ,is today I thought of this Elvis Costello song:

[Duchess]

hey as far as gun control discussions this is pretty mild.

And you did open that can of worms by bringing it up in the initial post.

[Jacky Tar]

True, some at Virginia Tech died like lambs and others like lions.

Yes, Virginia has lax gun laws and there will be more heated discussions on this topic.

More importantly 33 lives were lost and no one is better for it. I feel overwhelming sadness for those who have lost friends and loved ones.

[PyratePhil]

and Phil I'm almost shocked to say this but it looks like we finally agree on something...

Life is funny like that sometimes, isn't it?

[PyratePhil]

More importantly 33 lives were lost and no one is better for it. I feel overwhelming sadness for those who have lost friends and loved ones.

Actually, to echo Blackfoot's sentiment -

It's a shame that 32 lives were lost -

...it's just a shame that the 33rd one wasn't lost first.

Re: the gun control hot-button-

One thing that people often don't realize in discussions that are so emotionally charged is that the gun is just the tool, the technology used to deliver the will of the assailant. If it weren't a gun, it would be a martyr with c4 strapped to their chest, or someone with bioweapons, or someone with a very large cutlass, or...

Don't focus on the weapon - focus on the weapon-bearer, and how you can stop them. People will ALWAYS have access to some type of weapon - banning that weapon, even if effective, will only lead to more ingenuity in acquiring even more dangerous ones.

Learn to deal with the mind of the assailant first, then you can learn to deal with their tools.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

What was really getting me going the other day was that there were TV pundits and "experts" making arguments either for or against gun control in between the two seperate incidents on Monday -- and of course it was even worse by the afternoon as things played out.

Whichever way you lean on the issue, I personally don't approve of those using such an incident to further their own political agenda.

And this is in no way aimed at anyone here sharing their views, of course, just those in the mass media who have appointed themselves to think for everyone else. Gun control is an issue on which reasonable people can disagree -- it's the unreasonable ones (on both sides of the issue) that make it turn into arguments, rather than debate.

[michaelsbagley]

Re: the gun control hot-button-

One thing that people often don't realize in discussions that are so emotionally charged is that the gun is just the tool, the technology used to deliver the will of the assailant. If it weren't a gun, it would be a martyr with c4 strapped to their chest, or someone with bioweapons, or someone with a very large cutlass, or...

Don't focus on the weapon - focus on the weapon-bearer, and how you can stop them. People will ALWAYS have access to some type of weapon - banning that weapon, even if effective, will only lead to more ingenuity in acquiring even more dangerous ones.

Learn to deal with the mind of the assailant first, then you can learn to deal with their tools.

More importantly 33 lives were lost and no one is better for it. I feel overwhelming sadness for those who have lost friends and loved ones.

Actually, to echo Blackfoot's sentiment -

It's a shame that 32 lives were lost -

...it's just a shame that the 33rd one wasn't lost first.

I like that quote (both quotes in fact)....

Re: The potential "hot button" issue

When Duchess said, that this is one of the most polite "gun control" discussion on a message board of this type was correct (within my experience). Whether that part of the discussion continues or not, it is a great testiment of the people here on their civility and maturity regardless of what their individual beliefs are.

Learn to deal with the mind of the assailant first, then you can learn to deal with their tools.

Ahhh, one of the underlieing cruxes of the matter..... And unfortunately, with the current level of science, be it medical or psychological, we are unable to treat the minds, so we are left by trying to regulate the physical world in the hopes of protecting ourselves from those who may not be mentally well. Yes there have been great leaps forward in psychology in the past century, but it will likely be generations or even centuries more before we can truly treat the mentally ill. Good early development (a very subjective topic) can also greatly attribute to good adult mental health (again a subjective matter), but would you prefer to impose stricter laws on physical belongings/tools, or tighter laws on the psychological development and health of people? What it is the better solution? Thought police, or permission to own potentially dngerous tools police?

As Caraccioli so aptly put it,

Circles, circles, everything describes circles...

There are no correct answers, only different tacts, and neither tact really works, we can only try to apply a best guess to which tact to take and hope it works. And when we get it wrong (as we all inevitably do) hope that our chosen path works for us the next time, or try harder to find a comprimise between the quite often polarized choices, which in many cases, just isn't possible.

[callenish gunner]

it's not guns or poor planning that causes these incidents to occur ...they are random acts of violence performed by disturbed individuals .... there can't ever be planned responses to every event as the one that happened before each circumstance is unique ....yes i do agree that waiting for your execution is a senseless way to die when it is being committed by a lone gunman ...but it takes a hell of a lot of balls to allow yourself to die in an attempt to take down the shooter ....and unless we forget that if a pschopath needs a feeling of power by upping his kill ratio ...he need only look to the work of terry nichols and timothy mcvey in oklahoma city in 1995 ...168 people killed in an instant and no gun was involved or what about the suicide bombers in the middle east ..if they are committed to self destruction and the desire to inflict upon others pain suffering or death it's hard to pin point the individaul who will wake up on monday morn and stap explosives to their body and walk into a market or mall and blast thier ass to kingdom come

it has more to do with people ignoring people they know or love to go on unhindered with emotional or mental problems we don't seem to care about those in our midsts that are disturbed ...we don't feel it's our place to stop and lend a hand "the governemt will take care of the problem" the government used to take of the problem a bit more effectively but the cost was more than taxpayers wanted to bear for state mental hospitals so many of those institutions have closed across the country and the groups who claim that holding seriously mental distrubed individuals was cruel and unusual punishment for those folks because they have their rights as well

i listened to so called jouranlist pundits question about evacutation plans or stategies if a pchopath wanted to kill masses of people in a setting like that and he was from within the community of the university i'd go from the first act of violence to the site of the evacuation point and continue my rampage there ....in that scenario it's shooting fish in a barrel

do we as a society want an armed gaurd with us in every public building or business is so we need to come up with the funding to provide that level of security ...or submit every individual to intensive mental screening on a regular basis to identify who might be the next to snap

there is no quick fix or miracle cure for the senseless violence in this counrty or other places in the world ..it could only occur with more attention to our fellow human beings and their needs for individaul attention to their specific mental and emotional needs

so until the world figures out how to defuse the anger and hostility we have in our midsts we will have events such as Va Tech or iraq or dafur or god forbid auswitz or buchenwald