Uniform colors?

[Mission]

Holding so rigidly to a belief in spite of contrary evidence doesn't make someone sound like a very reasonable historian to me. I can't tell you how many times I've held with some historical point to find upon re-reading my own notes that I was wrong. (This is partially because I have been entering notes for almost 6 years and have forgotten more than I remember.) Pride goeth before the fall.

Those pictures look odd to me. Fashions aside, they look staged - as if someone had magazine clippings of various people's faces with different expressions and poses and used them to create their picture. (I think he used Hugh Jackman as Wolverine as a model for Blackbeard. Seriously, look at him!)

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Back to the original topic have we any clue what hats of " Woodes' company" were like. Soldier/ grenadier caps or tricornes?

[Fox]

The company of soldiers Woodes Rogers took with him to the Bahamas was what was termed an "Independent Company". That is to say, they were regular soldiers but not attached to any particular regiment. There were Independent Companies in many of the Caribbean Islands, and several of the North American colonies, as well as others scattered around. I haven't managed to track down information specific to Rogers' Bahamas company, but I have looked at information relating to the supply and uniform of numerous other Independent Companies, all of whom were equipped identically.

The Independent Company uniform, which would have been worn by the troops in the Bahamas as well as those in Bermuda, Jamaica, New England, and Africa (amongst other places), was a red coat with blue facings, blue waistcoat, red breeches, and a tricorn hat with white trim.

[Capt. Sterling]

Thank ye Foxe!!!!!!

[michaelsbagley]

Hey Foxe, about your statement on blue waistcoats for independent companies, I went with that for my interpretation, but never found anything primary supporting that (the waistcoat could just as likely have been red by my research). Have you found anything that supports the blue more than the red? Or did you just choose to favour that choice as I did?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

The company of soldiers Woodes Rogers took with him to the Bahamas was what was termed an "Independent Company". That is to say, they were regular soldiers but not attached to any particular regiment. There were Independent Companies in many of the Caribbean Islands, and several of the North American colonies, as well as others scattered around. I haven't managed to track down information specific to Rogers' Bahamas company, but I have looked at information relating to the supply and uniform of numerous other Independent Companies, all of whom were equipped identically.

The Independent Company uniform, which would have been worn by the troops in the Bahamas as well as those in Bermuda, Jamaica, New England, and Africa (amongst other places), was a red coat with blue facings, blue waistcoat, red breeches, and a tricorn hat with white trim.

Nice and classic . btw Were there grenadiers in colonies?

[Fox]

Sorry Michael (and others), you're quite right, I may have made the blue waistcoats up.

Indpendent Company uniform was red coat with blue facings, red breeches, and tricorn hat with white piping.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Sorry Michael (and others), you're quite right, I may have made the blue waistcoats up.

Indpendent Company uniform was red coat with blue facings, red breeches, and tricorn hat with white piping.

So similar to than what Michael was portraying earlier in this tread. When these uniforms were taken in use? really early 1700s or during war of spanish succession?

I am critisizing that one book from Konstam and David again but now it has actually linked to this tread

This is picture from it. I don't know what is title of this illustration but it clearly it is pirate hanging of pirates in 1720s. It almost certainly is boston or some other colony but why Blue Coats??

Still about David's book and his opinions. Always when I read his writing my bloodpressure rises (if you get what I mean). It is due his style to say things ( and "wrong" facts ( no offence)) not that I would be disappointed about that popular pirate image is not accurate but just because of his style to present his visions. One more reason not to buy that book

Edited April 15, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

Off the top of my head I'd say that that picture is set in Scotland (judging by the blue bonnets in the foreground) which probably makes it the execution of Thomas Green and co in Edinburgh in 1705. At that date Scotland was not part of Britain and so the uniforms were not regular English army establishment.

Independent Company uniform was red and blue from their inception (sometime before 1711) until the 1730s(?) when the facings were changed to green.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Off the top of my head I'd say that that picture is set in Scotland (judging by the blue bonnets in the foreground) which probably makes it the execution of Thomas Green and co in Edinburgh in 1705. At that date Scotland was not part of Britain and so the uniforms were not regular English army establishment.

Independent Company uniform was red and blue from their inception (sometime before 1711) until the 1730s(?) when the facings were changed to green.

ok. Indeed that can well be Scotland... Oh and there is no silver oar so it is not Britain.... but after 1707 things would be different...

I have read ( from wikipedia ) that there was some soldiers with Captn. Barnet when he captured Rackham.

Is that true?

Do we know was Colonel William Rhett leader of some " indepentend Compay"?

Btw this is what Dutch artists surmised english soldier in Boston to look like. ( you can enlarge it quite a bit)

Edited April 15, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[michaelsbagley]

Sorry Michael (and others), you're quite right, I may have made the blue waistcoats up.

Indpendent Company uniform was red coat with blue facings, red breeches, and tricorn hat with white piping.

No need to apologize! I appreciate the clarification, and the share of information though. I just wanted to ensure that my current opinions were still on the mark, and that I was still correct on where my lines of reasonable extrapolation and items based on fact. I have flip-flopped on my opinion of the colour for the waistcoat at least a couple of times a year since I started with that impression (and will likely continue to waffle on that opinion),

[Fox]

I have read ( from wikipedia ) that there was some soldiers with Captn. Barnet when he captured Rackham.

Is that true?

No idea off the top of my head. There were soldiers based in Jamaica, so it's possible.

Do we know was Colonel William Rhett leader of some " indepentend Compay"?

Independent companies were commanded by captains. Rhett was a militia colonel

Btw this is what Dutch artists surmised english soldier in Boston to look like. ( you can enlarge it quite a bit)

That's Stede Bonnet's execution, so it's Charleston, South Carolina...

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Oh I was remembering that Bonnet was hanged in New England but ofcourse Charleston

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Independent companies were commanded by captains. Rhett was a militia colonel

Had militia any kind of uniforms? ( were they same militia companies that were later called " minutemen"?)

[Swashbuckler 1700]

The Osprey pirates book I have has several guys in a jacket style I have never seen. It looks like a modified 17th century short coat. Also, more than one guy is wearing a belt that looks like it is holding up their trousers / slops. Overall, I like Osprey books a lot and own several, but for some reason, The GAOP pirate book looks really off. I do like the Buccaneer book and the English Sea Dog.

This new is better than old ones but it is still not too good http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/1849084971. First book where I see pirates with derbys on their heads ( period sailor's hats seems to still have little more brim while sailors prefered small hats those look odd. (like In here we can see little bigger brim hat note one man in tent)

http://jcb.lunaimagi...~2~2&mi=0&trs=1)

Their vision of Rn leather caps is really not justified. While it may be near the truth it has certainly been dreamed up and they are something like grenadier caps. It seems also that they are little too excited with fur hats.... there is also no Trump caps at all ( I know I have seen most pirate clothing pages in it)

Here is some pics I have found on the web I have read much of the book in different reviews. Note that there is also both stuff from 1690s and 1700s in same place mixed with odd "Gaop combination". for example I have not found references to checkered petticoat breeches after 1690s. I also wonder why jackets have no mariners cuffs??? Those back buttons in jackets looks also odd same with Maynard and those slop jackets have too many buttons not 15 but more like 24 buttons in them. I also feel that slop clothing is too popular among Rn sailors since ALL of them use them. There is also need for onion bottles. The book in indeed one of the best osprey books but it could be much better while I don't like it is actually one of the most accurately illustrated books of pirates.

( sorry for 3 small posts in a row)

This is going silly. but in that book there is lack of striped and blue shirts. There is only white and checkered ones visible... Foxe has made interesting study here ( it has been around pirate forums) http://www.forums.py...c.php?f=10&t=19 and there is lots of striped and blue shirts. ( no need to educate me because I know that that list is for illustrative purposes only ) Like I said earlier slop clothing is described almost as uniform and the only variable part is headgear (which seems to vary between leather caps, Monmouths and round hats). That slop clothing is uniform not seem to be accurate while they could have been popular. Also why all neckerchiefs are white? Is there documentation of blue ones or else? I still think that some of those round hats ( while many are good.... now I mean only the black ones) look odd and they have odd helmet kind of shape if you get what I mean. Comparing with period pics I don't see much similar ones since usually crown is more narrower and brim a little bit wider....

Edited April 19, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Mission]

I think we all agree these drawings aren't very good representations. On top of everything else, they look stilted. Look at the guy in the top pic holding the bottle. His pose looks completely unnatural to me. And the guy in that pic with the red coat and hideous red and white slops appears to be modeled on actor Carl Lumbly.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I think we all agree these drawings aren't very good representations. On top of everything else, they look stilted. Look at the guy in the top pic holding the bottle. His pose looks completely unnatural to me. And the guy in that pic with the red coat and hideous red and white slops appears to be modeled on actor Carl Lumbly.

Oh indeed they look odd and that guy looks like Carl Lumbly.

However these pictures are still one of the most accurate representations made yet and I think that they are so bad that there is serious need for better pictures and books.. Why anyone has not done it better... Whyyyyy!!!!!! It should not be so hard but it seems that it is hard after all....

I hope you understand me ( with language of course)

Edited April 19, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

Because Osprey are really the only people who publish books with that kind of illustration, and Osprey won't publish a book about pirates unless it's written by Angus Konstam. (Or at least co-written - my understanding is that the clothing part of that book was more or less all done by David Rickman).

The other problem is that there just isn't a universal consensus on the topic. People have been doing a lot of in-depth research into the appearance of pirates on this forum for a decade, and we still don't agree what they looked like!

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Because Osprey are really the only people who publish books with that kind of illustration, and Osprey won't publish a book about pirates unless it's written by Angus Konstam. (Or at least co-written - my understanding is that the clothing part of that book was more or less all done by David Rickman).

The other problem is that there just isn't a universal consensus on the topic. People have been doing a lot of in-depth research into the appearance of pirates on this forum for a decade, and we still don't agree what they looked like!

Indeed You are rigth David has done almost all clothing stuff there. I think that Konstam is not too good but not bad author either but he has done many many errors in many books etc..... Indeed there is no consesus or propably never will .....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Sorry Michael (and others), you're quite right, I may have made the blue waistcoats up.

Indpendent Company uniform was red coat with blue facings, red breeches, and tricorn hat with white piping.

Does the white piping mean that the edge of the hat was white?

[Fox]

Yes

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Have we any clue what Portuquese soldiers that killed H. Davis look liked?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Independent companies were commanded by captains. Rhett was a militia colonel

Had militia any kind of uniforms? ( were they same militia companies that were later called " minutemen"?)

Now I can answer myself fhen read Us history adn I so no they were not same..

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Too bad this has no colors but French marine circa 1718.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Piracy was not enough of a threat to warrant the issuance of soldiers (which were in shortage of supply), so it was left to militias and navy/admirality. It sucks that it plays out this way, as red coats versus pirates is a very iconic image, but it is just starting to look like it is an iconic image fed by pop culture.

That I have thought for a long time and that is why I was skeptical of that "Woodes's company" would be redcoats at all.

What about the "wiki fact" (not too good ) that there were soldiers in ship that captured Rackham. And I think it is likely that uniformed soldiers of some sorts were present in executions of pirates (at least in London or ?). And what about navy marines and War of the Quadruple Alliance there might be marines in the navy there since war was on in America s well.....

Edited June 23, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700