Uniform colors?

[michaelsbagley]

Those links won't work for those who are not members of those Yahoo groups... But Lee's article can be found on this web site (his web site?).

Browsing through some yahoo groups that I'd forgotten I was part of (...in my defence, such that it is, they were all the way on page 2 of the list ) and in the files section of Early18thcenturyWars there was a link to this pdf which has in the lists the uniform colours and facings of some of the regiments including marines and 'sea service regiments'. It's called The British Military Presence in North America and the Caribbean, 1660-1720.

Nice clear timeline

Good bib' at the end.

Edited to add

The pdf link has stopped working for me here it is in longhand. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gPuDSw-aNXzE52beDxlZnfL93Dj9WwlrLz54T5FjLUjNL78FnYQfMIODtRWz2g5N7O60cxBzUWPhhhCM6Agv4sujOEGATQ/British%20Mil%20%20America%20and%20%20Caribbean%2C%201660-1720.doc

[Korisios]

This is what we generally wear at Castillo de San Marcos, Spanish Marine (Artillery). The waistcoat changes to blue for Infantry. Time period is 1740 which coinsides with the major English attack on the Castillo. There are some other uniforms I will investigate shortly and try and get pictures of.

Disclaimer: I'm new to this, just having completed Cannon School so there may be inaccuracies which I will endeavor to correct as my knowledge of El Castillo and her defenders increases.

I was just about to ask for Spanisch uniforms of that time, when i found this guy...

Now my questions are how would people recognise him as being Spanisch does he have anything peticular like the cocked had with the yellow ribbon??

And are there other Spanisch colonial uniforms to be be looked at on this forum or on the internet...?

[Korisios]

Answering my own qustion...http://www.islaperdida.com/paginasejercito/principalejercito.htm

[michaelsbagley]

Someone posted the below images over on Frontier Folk. I've seen the Watteau (1717 French Soldiers, Infantry?) image come up before (at least a few times), but the 1725 French Marine Bombardier is the first time I have noticed it. I find it incredibly humourous that the French Bombardier image looks almost exactly what my researches on the British Independent Company of Foote Guards would look like. (give or take a few details, like shot box style, and colour of socks). Better yet, I have most of the accessories to switch the British Infantry portrayal into the French Marine Bombardier.

[Korisios]

I resently boyed two little books with Spanish more ore less colonial uniforms. The period is the American Revolution around 1780.

Now I understood that the GAoP is something like 1650 - 1750 (right?)

My question is: how much differens would ther be in a uniform from around the GAoP and 1780??

To me it looks pretty much the same, but hey I am no expert (jet)...

[michaelsbagley]

I resently boyed two little books with Spanish more ore less colonial uniforms. The period is the American Revolution around 1780.

Now I understood that the GAoP is something like 1650 - 1750 (right?)

My question is: how much differens would ther be in a uniform from around the GAoP and 1780??

To me it looks pretty much the same, but hey I am no expert (jet)...

Lots of difference. I have mostly been focusing on the 1700 to 1720 era uniforms, but I even see differences between those uniforms and the 1680s and 1690s ones. The changes are more dramatic (to me) once you get into the 1730s and 1740s.

One thing that I think is very obvious in the differences is the folded back lapels. The length of the coats, and the way they are draped changes quite a lot as well.

Compare the below two pictures... The first is of me and Matt in our Queen Anne War era uniforms (please excuse the colour of mine, it is off and too burgandy), the second is a sketch of a Revolution War era uniform I was able to find on google. Pretty big differences if you ask me.

[Korisios]

Yeah Your right!!

I did notise the lapels dow...

Do you know any good place to get info on GAoP Spanish (colonial) uniforms?

[Korisios]

Another question recarding uniforms;

Am I right that the normal most basic uniforms where handed out to the soldiers wilst the officers mostly ordered their clothes to be tailor made and made of finer fabrics?

Then, when the unit collors where let's say white waistcotes with a green liner and cufs. Would then the officers (for example leutenants) also use these collors. But then of silk or finner wool or kotton with maybe some brocate here and there???

[michaelsbagley]

Hi Korisios,

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Spanish uniforms of the period, I have mostly just focused on English, but I have learned a fair bit about French uniforms as well, but nothing on Spanish.

Your second question about what officers uniforms, is not as simple as that. In my research on English uniforms, low level officer uniforms would have been issued (Sarjents, Ensigns, etc.) in better quality wool than a soldiers coat. But for higher up officers such as Lieutenants or Captains, they would most likely have had their uniforms tailored out of better fabrics, and in the same colours as the unit, but with more trim, braids, and perhaps some brocade on the waistcoats, but not likely the outer coats.

[Daniel]

This is outside my specialty, but maybe this picture of the assault on Cartagena in 1741 would be useful regarding colors of Spanish colonial infantry?

[Korisios]

Thanks to both of you...

[michaelsbagley]

This is outside my specialty, but maybe this picture of the assault on Cartagena in 1741 would be useful regarding colors of Spanish colonial infantry?

It is also a bit post GAoP, but still looks very good and is comparable to what is shown in the Cartagena assualt... But check out the Spanish (artillery?) uniform PyratJoe is wearing in the picture in this link.

[Korisios]

Yes I have seen Pirat Joe, the cut (and maybe collor) of his uniform will moost likely be my inspiration. together with some pictures I found and posted here allready.

this guy apears to be a Spanish marine http://www.islaperdida.com/paginasejercito/275Galeras.htm

Galeras means Galley.

But most of all I like this purple fellow http://www.islaperdida.com/paginasejercito/22terciosevilla.htm...

But then again he's from europe and moost likey as a soldier he would not have ended up in the Carribean...

unless he's on vacation...

or maybe he's retiered, started doing some overseas duties and kept his purple coat just because he's a show of...

Edited March 29, 2010 by Korisios

[Fox]

Your second question about what officers uniforms, is not as simple as that. In my research on English uniforms, low level officer uniforms would have been issued (Sarjents, Ensigns, etc.) in better quality wool than a soldiers coat. But for higher up officers such as Lieutenants or Captains, they would most likely have had their uniforms tailored out of better fabrics, and in the same colours as the unit, but with more trim, braids, and perhaps some brocade on the waistcoats, but not likely the outer coats.

Bear in mind that military uniforms are not my primary field of research, but I've done a bit. Do you have evidence of ensigns being issued uniform? I'm under the impression that the line is drawn at commissioned officers - everyone up to and including sergeant was issued uniform, everyone over and including ensign provided their own.

[michaelsbagley]

Fox, please do take that statement with a grain of salt. I was going from memory of something I remember seeing in the colonial papers I cite throughout this thread. I seem to recall the citation as being an order for equipage, and it listing the items for soldiers, then something to the effect of "the same in finer materials" for sarjents, and I think Ensigns were included in that as well.... But now that you question the statement, I can't for the life of me find the citation again. I will keep looking for it, and until I find the quote, please disregard my assertion that Ensigns were provided with uniforms.

Your second question about what officers uniforms, is not as simple as that. In my research on English uniforms, low level officer uniforms would have been issued (Sarjents, Ensigns, etc.) in better quality wool than a soldiers coat. But for higher up officers such as Lieutenants or Captains, they would most likely have had their uniforms tailored out of better fabrics, and in the same colours as the unit, but with more trim, braids, and perhaps some brocade on the waistcoats, but not likely the outer coats.

Bear in mind that military uniforms are not my primary field of research, but I've done a bit. Do you have evidence of ensigns being issued uniform? I'm under the impression that the line is drawn at commissioned officers - everyone up to and including sergeant was issued uniform, everyone over and including ensign provided their own.

[michaelsbagley]

I still can't find the quote I was looking at, but in searching for it, I have decided that I was most likely incorrect, and it was Sarjeants and CorporalsI was thinking of, and not Sarjeants and Ensigns.

That aside, I did find the below quote on the value of the various portions of a uniform from this page of the Colonial documents web site..

408. Henry Norton to the Council of Trade and Plantations. The clothing sent by Genl. Nicholson for Annapolis Royal were directed to be issued at, a serjeant's coat and breeches, 40s., a centinel's, 28s. etc., and a serjeant's complete mounting £4, a centinel's £2 10s. The remainder, which upon the advice of the Governor and Council of New England, he sold by public auction, fetched, a centinel's coat and breeches from 18s. 6d. to 23s. (New England currt. money=60 p.c. advance), etc. Signed, Henry Norton. Endorsed, Recd. Read 13th May, 1715. 3 pp. [C.O. 217, 1. No. 109.]

[Korisios]

Would cotton be okay for an officers frock coat? with maybe a fine linnen lining??

[Tartan Jack]

Do you mean modern cotton?

Or the wool-cotton the term meant "back then?"

[Korisios]

I mean the cotton they grow on a plant like in central america...

Before the spanish came to America the locals made cloth out of it, allready for many years...

[michaelsbagley]

I mean the cotton they grow on a plant like in central america...

Before the spanish came to America the locals made cloth out of it, allready for many years...

Cotton was certainly in use by the upper eschelons of society in this time frame, I have seen references of higher up officers using silks to have their "uniforms" made... Truth be told, I haven't researched officers much. What little I know would indicate that their outfits would relatively match the unit's, but be made of any custom materials the officer chose.

[Joe Pyrat]

Yes I have seen Pirat Joe, the cut (and maybe collor) of his uniform will moost likely be my inspiration. together with some pictures I found and posted here allready.

this guy apears to be a Spanish marine http://www.islaperdi.../275Galeras.htm

Galeras means Galley.

But most of all I like this purple fellow http://www.islaperdi...rciosevilla.htm...

But then again he's from europe and moost likey as a soldier he would not have ended up in the Carribean...

unless he's on vacation...

or maybe he's retiered, started doing some overseas duties and kept his purple coat just because he's a show of...

Yes the uniform is based on the 1738 Spanish Marine uniform. There is a mural in a museum in Mexico City showing a scene from 1740 and there are numerous examples in it of this uniform. For the field, white gaiters were added.

[Korisios]

Yes I have seen Pirat Joe, the cut (and maybe collor) of his uniform will moost likely be my inspiration. together with some pictures I found and posted here allready.

this guy apears to be a Spanish marine http://www.islaperdi.../275Galeras.htm

Galeras means Galley.

But most of all I like this purple fellow http://www.islaperdi...rciosevilla.htm...

But then again he's from europe and moost likey as a soldier he would not have ended up in the Carribean...

unless he's on vacation...

or maybe he's retiered, started doing some overseas duties and kept his purple coat just because he's a show of...

Yes the uniform is based on the 1738 Spanish Marine uniform. There is a mural in a museum in Mexico City showing a scene from 1740 and there are numerous examples in it of this uniform. For the field, white gaiters were added.

Thanks Joe!

Could you give anymore info on Spanish uniforms of that period?

Or do you happen to know books about the subject or other knowledgable people..?

I also had to look up the therm "gaiters"and found this... I thoughd I post it here, sinds patterns are allways usefull...

[Korisios]

I'f just got this site from a guy from the Early18thcenturyWars Yahoo group...

Now who would like to translate all this?

[Korisios]

I'll hope you people don't mind i'll take this thread a little furter, by extending the subject to militairy uniform 1700-1750 (more or less) in general...

..because I found another nice site this time i'ts in Russian but is has nice pictures of real (I think)uniforms and some patterns...

[michaelsbagley]

That web site was recently recommended to me as well. I think the uniforms pictures, are reproductions. But they are awesome! In fact that web site has made me kind of want to make a Russian Dragoon uniform... But I already have too many unfinished projects on my plate, so that will have to wait until another year.