Uniform colors?

[blackjohn]

I have this illustration in at least two books on the period, maybe four. I don't recall them being described as dragoons. And note the lack of gaiters. Dragoons, as I recall, are more often than not thus equipped.

[blackjohn]

Something in the back of my brain is saying these guys are soldiers of James II from Monmouth's Rebellion...

[Joe Pyrat]

I'm not sure how specific to the 1740s that uniform is, but to my eyes it would not look out of place at an earlier 1700s event either. Very cool stuff! Thanks for sharing!

Michael, I just got back to Saint Augustine after a week or so away. My understanding is this uniform is the result of research conducted by the National Park Service (they provided the uniform). I'll be seeing some of the guys shortly and will see if I can find out how they determined this was the correct uniform for the period. I'll let you know what they say.

Most of the GAoP research by reenactors is English based. Although the focus of the living history display as El Castillo is 1740, which coincides with the major English attack on the fort, there is a wealth of knowledge here regarding the earlier period which is why I have decided to stay in the area for hurricane season. I am greatly enjoying discussing the Spanish perspective with the staff and senior volunteers.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Joe Pyrat

[blackjohn]

For the above illustration, quoting the caption...

Four Dutch soldiers of William III's army. One has a soft, fur-trimmed hat, another a leather cap which may resemble those worn by English fusiliers. Plug bayonets and powder flasks are worn on a waistbelt. From left to right the uniforms are: (1) - black cap, red coat cuffs and stockings; (2) - grey coat and cuffs, red waistcoat and stockings, hat edged with white lace; (3) - red coat and cuffs with red waistcoat, grey stockings, hat bound with white lace; (4) - red cap edged with brown fur, red coat and cuffs, red waistcoat, grey stockings. All four figures have white metal buttons and buff leather equipment. The musket locks are difficult to identify, and have in any case been drawn incorrectly, fitted on the left-hand side. Pen and watercolour by an unknown artist. (The Royal Collection © 1993 Her Majesty The Queen)

I hope you don't mind violating the Queen's copyright.

[michaelsbagley]

I hope you don't mind violating the Queen's copyright.

Thanks for the quote!

As for the Queen, even as a loyal subject I think I can happily turn a blind eye to this one.... Special since the transgression has happened outside of Her jurisdiction.

[Capt. Sterling]

a handful of us Brits are moving towards a portrayal of Woodes Rogers' private company of soldiers who arrived at Providence with him to fight the nasty pirates.

I've tracked down the records of their kit supplies, but haven't had a chance to go see them yet to see if they contain any information about coat and facing colours.

Oi Foxe, have you ever been able to go any further with this?

[Fox]

a handful of us Brits are moving towards a portrayal of Woodes Rogers' private company of soldiers who arrived at Providence with him to fight the nasty pirates.

I've tracked down the records of their kit supplies, but haven't had a chance to go see them yet to see if they contain any information about coat and facing colours.

Oi Foxe, have you ever been able to go any further with this?

Yar, I found some bits at the PRO, but nothing that mentioned coat colours. However, peripheral research shows that the Bahamas company was a regular independent company, so red faced with blue is most likely. Current discussion on the UK effort can be found here: http://www.ukpiratebrotherhood.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=388.0

[Capt. Sterling]

Thanks Foxe, as always much obliged.

[michaelsbagley]

Yar, I found some bits at the PRO, but nothing that mentioned coat colours. However, peripheral research shows that the Bahamas company was a regular independent company, so red faced with blue is most likely. Current discussion on the UK effort can be found here: http://www.ukpiratebrotherhood.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=388.0

Primary source information on colours for Independent Companies (at least those of the New York area) which is what I have based my portrayal on.

Scroll down the page until you get to entry "Aug 2 and 12: Boston - 666" and you will see reference to every man needing a blue or red coat. There are also a great many statements likening and comparing the newly formed (or to be formed) regiment to that of New York... So I think it might be safe to give a bit more credibility to the blue and red colours of the independent companies of New York. Now if we can only find some more solid info on the colours of the independent companies of the Carolinas and other areas, to see if this blue red colour scheme holds for most or all independent companies, that would be huge.

Also worth reading, is some of the info myself and others have posted on Living History Worldwide's War of Spanish Succession discussion goup and/or the stuff posted on Late Clonial America Reenactors Forum which is mostly a dumping ground of stuff I found in the British online archives.

As an aside, I am picking up the fabric for the newer updated version of my interpretation of the uniform tomorrow... The burgandy one has done it's job as a place holder for over a year now, I think I am past due on taking it up a notch.

[michaelsbagley]

I've been getting a number of questions about where to get fabric for this impression to create a sort of unified look for those who may end up working together on occasion. Rather than respond to a few private messages, I thought I would just post the information here for those interested to look up and refer back to at their discretion.

For the red....

Personally I bought the fabric for my "Mark II" red coat at 96 District Storehouse, but 96 District is definitely one of those places it is better to shop at in person (whether you go to South Carolina or see them at an event), as most of their best stock is not at their web site and changes frequently.

There is also the broadcloth available from Wm. Booth, Draper, I like the weight and colour of WWW103 best (but it is an 85%/15% wool/nylon blend), but the WWK103 is still a good colour and decent weight (plus 100% wool). Both of these can be gotten at the manufacturer (Woolrich's Woolen Mill) for cheaper, IF you buy a lot of 15 yards AND have a vendors permit. Look at the Civil War tab for the 85%/15% blend colours, and the Fiber Art tab for the slightly lighter weight but 100% wool colours.

So far I have used any navy blue wool I can get my hands on... I am considering using the Navy Blue crepe from B. Blacks and Sons for the lining, and considering using the Navy Blue Melton (coating) from B. Blacks and Sons for the cuffs and waistcoat.

A note about colours in general for this, in an earlier post in this thread, there is some pretty solid evidence to the fact that uniform colours weren't exactly.... well uniform. So as long as those interested in trying to create a more or less cohesive unit select a red that is close to madder or true red, and aim for navy blue for the cuffs and lining, I think it will look smashing! And please if anyone else has some good suggestions for sources for wool for this, please share them as well!

[Jack Roberts]

Hey Mickey, What pattern would you be using for this coat? So the waistcoat would be blue and your using melton?!?! I says you be meltin' in your melton. LOL!!

[Rats]

Here check out this dk red!

It's perfect!! Even when it fades it'll be perfect!!

http://www.woolrichfabrics.com/mysql/detail.asp?id=17

good stuff!!!

Hey Mickey, What pattern would you be using for this coat? So the waistcoat would be blue and your using melton?!?! I says you be meltin' in your melton. LOL!!

[michaelsbagley]

Hey Mickey, What pattern would you be using for this coat? So the waistcoat would be blue and your using melton?!?! I says you be meltin' in your melton. LOL!!

Nah, I won't be using melton (nice pun though! ). I got some top notch fabric from the 96 District Storehouse when we were at the "Faire At New Boston" re-enactment trade fair in western Ohio back in September. I was suggesting it as an option for those who are considering this.

As for the colour of the waistcoat... I've seen so many variations, I don't think you can say soldiers wore either one colour or another waistcoat. On the whole, I believe (Please note OPINION here) they were likely issued a blue waistcoat the first year, and where then asked to make the subsequent years waistcoat from last year's coat. Which means they could have recycled the outer fabric from the outer coat and had red waistcoats.... Or they may have recycled the blue and had blue waistcoats. I do have documentation for the making new waistcoats from last years outer coat, just not what part of the coat or what colour they used.

As for pattern, I started with the RH pattern for the 1700s era Frock Coat... But I will be making my "Model 2" from a self drafted pattern. I will be reducing the flare of the skirting (to about 70 degrees instead of the 90 degrees the later frock coat pattern has), and perhaps shortening the arms by an inch or two. Am I making sense?

As to fabrics, if you are considering this seriously, my best suggestion is to go with the Woolrich fabrics, the B. Blacks and Sons stuff is good enough, but the Woolrich stuff is closer on the colours and weight (I find the B. Blacks and Sons Melton too heavy, and their flannel a hair too light).

[michaelsbagley]

I remembered this pic while going through some photos of this past year... I thought it would be well worth posting here. I know different screens display colours differently, but the coat on Matt (the one that is not burgandy) is pretty much the perfect colour (madder red) although it doesn't much look like it in this photo.

[Hawkyns]

One thing that absolutely made me twitch at PiP was seeing redcoats working artillery pieces. Gunners wore blue uniform coats, not red. Facings would change and the weskit colours would occasionally change, but it was a blue coat. I'm trying to put together a blue coat with orange facings for William's artillery from the Battle of the Boyne.

Hawkyns

Gunner, Royal Irish Artillery

[capn'rob]

One thing that absolutely made me twitch at PiP was seeing redcoats working artillery pieces. Gunners wore blue uniform coats, not red. Facings would change and the weskit colours would occasionally change, but it was a blue coat. I'm trying to put together a blue coat with orange facings for William's artillery from the Battle of the Boyne.

Hawkyns

Gunner, Royal Irish Artillery

One thing that continues to make me chuckle is the 2nd Co. Gov.s Footguard still wearing the Redcoats stolen from the Lobsterbacks at the outbreak of the Revolutionary War!! Happy New Year, Mr. Hawkins!

[Capt. Sterling]

One thing that absolutely made me twitch at PiP was seeing redcoats working artillery pieces. Gunners wore blue uniform coats, not red. Facings would change and the weskit colours would occasionally change, but it was a blue coat. I'm trying to put together a blue coat with orange facings for William's artillery from the Battle of the Boyne.

Hawkyns

Gunner, Royal Irish Artillery

Aye but until the Fort starts making money to spare on new garments, I think everyone will need to get used to the red coats they are always handing out... some day...

[capn'rob]

We should just get a couple o' hundred thousand guineas and buy new stuff for all!!

[Capt. Sterling]

One thing that absolutely made me twitch at PiP was seeing redcoats working artillery pieces. Gunners wore blue uniform coats, not red. Facings would change and the weskit colours would occasionally change, but it was a blue coat. I'm trying to put together a blue coat with orange facings for William's artillery from the Battle of the Boyne.

Hawkyns

Gunner, Royal Irish Artillery

Hmmmm what do ye think?

http://www.cmhg-phmc.gc.ca/cmh/en/image_176.asp?page_id=215

[michaelsbagley]

Hmmmm what do ye think?

http://www.cmhg-phmc.gc.ca/cmh/en/image_176.asp?page_id=215

I like it! Specially since it jives with and matches everything I have found on Independent companies (albeit a bit more fancier than infantry, but that was common for "specialty" units). Thanks for digging that up!

To counter this (and site another non-primary source), I believe some of the artillery units as shown in some of the Osprey Military books for the Queen Anne period, blue coats may have been used as well. I would love to find what their source was for the 1722 date on the change from Red to Blue for artillery coats, and know for absolute certain that was the conversion date.

[Hawkyns]

Interesting. I've never known Gerry to be wrong, he's my best secondary source for 15th C stuff. That said, he is in conflict with Tincey in his "British Army 1660-1704" which shows the reconstruction of the uniform from the Boyne- blue coat, oragange cuffs and facings. It is also in conflict with Barthorp in his "Marlborough's Army 1702-11" which shows a reconstruction of a gunner from 1709 in a blue coat.

(space for an hour in the library)

Right, I think I may have an idea on some of the confusion. There seems to have been some shifting of coat colours. Some of this seems to come from the fact that there were Dutch and German units in the army at this time. Dutch and German units frequently wore blue, so for part of the period, blue uniforms for artillery would have been period. this would have been a direct result of William of Orange assuming the Crown. There is one reference to a "shift back to red coats" in the early part of the 18th c, but this does not appear to have been universal, especially in the foriegn units.

Hawkyns

[Mission]

This is an interesting bit from the English held island of Barbadoes around 1700 from The Memoirs of Pére Labat 1693-1705, translated and edited by John Eaden. (Only a small part regards uniform colors, but I do so love Labat's descriptions. Maybe someone will find something in there interesting besides just colors.)

"...beside the fact that I was in good company, I had the pleasure of watching a revue of the cavalry and infantry of the country. There were four companies of cavalry each containing 126 riders with their drummers and trumpeters. They were all well mounted and well armed. The officers wore red uniforms with wide gold stripes and helmets with white plumes. The infantry were also drawn up in four companies and mustered possibly 200 men. They were fairly well armed, but seemed to be more the servants of the cavalry, being chiefly composed of overseers, workmen, and small proprieters. All the wealthy men, and there are plenty of them in Barbados, are in the cavalry. These troops were of course Militia." (Labat, p. 125)

[Grymm]

1st Earl of Torringtons 1st marine in Blue 1689 - 1698 from the book..............

"Uniforms of the Royal Marines from 1664 to the present day" - [that would be 1997] It was published by Pompadour Gallery in 1997 by George & Christopher Newark. Plates are by Charles C. Stadden.

2nd Marines Earl of Pembrokes Marines same book.

[Grymm]

Browsing through some yahoo groups that I'd forgotten I was part of (...in my defence, such that it is, they were all the way on page 2 of the list ) and in the files section of Early18thcenturyWars there was a link to this pdf which has in the lists the uniform colours and facings of some of the regiments including marines and 'sea service regiments'. It's called The British Military Presence in North America and the Caribbean, 1660-1720.

Nice clear timeline

Good bib' at the end.

Edited to add

The pdf link has stopped working for me here it is in longhand. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gPuDSw-aNXzE52beDxlZnfL93Dj9WwlrLz54T5FjLUjNL78FnYQfMIODtRWz2g5N7O60cxBzUWPhhhCM6Agv4sujOEGATQ/British%20Mil%20%20America%20and%20%20Caribbean%2C%201660-1720.doc

Edited February 23, 2010 by Grymm

[Matty Bottles]

Yes! I found that list a few years ago, and never saved it! Thank you!