Uniform colors?

[blackjohn]

Well based upon Blackjohn's question, if one went with the 90s how quick were changes made or would some of the older stuff still be hanging around?

I believe by the Teens most of your 90s stuff would be old-fashioned. Sure, still around, but out-of-date.

As we know, the only "good" answer, the best answer, is to be able to do both!

The question really is, which do you want to do first?

My advice, do the Teens first, because there are guys doing 90s already, and I want some more modern dudes to fight!

:)

[Capt. Sterling]

As we know, the only "good" answer, the best answer, is to be able to do both!

The question really is, which do you want to do first?

My advice, do the Teens first, because there are guys doing 90s already, and I want some more modern dudes to fight!

:)

Both is the best answer... but we shall concentrate on the teens if you like for militia... Okay Rats... you now know where to hunt...

[Capt. Sterling]

Off topic, and my RevWar knowledge is about 10 years old, but at the time the IMR had gotten a big batch of wool from an English mill dyed in what was supposed to be correct colors.  The mill was producing cloth during the time, and, according to someone's research, produced wool that found its way into American coats, via the Dutch, who purchased it from the British and sold it to the French!

Yes when P. Ford was with the Royal Welsh, I know they were supposedly getting their wool from across the pond from an original supplier... but if I remember correctly some how they lost out on that...and even their museum in Wales, has kit that they made and gave to the regiment...

Off topic as well, what Rev. war unit did you play with and when if you don't mind me asking? You can always pm me

[Rats]

Excellent!

We'll look toward the teens!

I was also thinking we should let the rangers keep their elite group rather than flood the field with green guys!

Now let's see what pics are out there for grunts in red!

Great work and input everyone! There is nothing like forward progress!!!

Here's to you all!

Rats

[William Brand]

I really like the clean, white and blue of the French uniforms, but how do you keep that clean?

[michaelsbagley]

I really like the clean, white and blue of the French uniforms, but how do you keep that clean?

French Maids!

Unfortunately my trip to Toronto was cut short so I didn't have time to visit the museum and take photos, nor did I get to do any book shopping...

[William Brand]

Unfortunately my trip to Toronto was cut short so I didn't have time to visit the museum and take photos, nor did I get to do any book shopping...

And now...an empathetic curse for a fellow pirate...

CUUUURSES!

[Capt. Sterling]

I really like the clean, white and blue of the French uniforms, but how do you keep that clean?

You don't! We did both Brit and American for Rev. War...3rd continental Light Horse Dragoons... Willie Washington's group... white coats, light blue facings... with horses... not a pleasant mix.

[William Brand]

Aye. Still, white is fairly easy to "age", since it is impossible to keep clean. My two shirts have been to only the one event and already they have a touch of the "Lived in" look.

[michaelsbagley]

Bump

Wow, I can't believe how long it has been since I have looked at this thread....

So yesterday I scored a wicked deal on some good stout brick red wool, and now I am thinking of getting an outfit together for a 17-teens British Red Coat uniform (rank and file soldier, not an officer)...

I'm still trying to decide on the colour for the facings, but I would like to try and match my uniform up with anyone out there who is currently doing a Red Coat portrayal, or is considering it.... I am leaning most towards either buff (natural) wool or blue wool for the facings, but I am open to going with what ever flow will get the most Red Coats on the field so the pirates have someone to fight besides themselves (or the occasional group of pirate hunters, who look terribly like pirates anyways )

Anyone out there still interested in this? Or am I setting myself up to be a army of one with this endeavour?

Cheers.

[Fox]

I know it's the wrong side of the Atlantic for you to join in, but it might be of interest anyway: a handful of us Brits are moving towards a portrayal of Woodes Rogers' private company of soldiers who arrived at Providence with him to fight the nasty pirates.

I've tracked down the records of their kit supplies, but haven't had a chance to go see them yet to see if they contain any information about coat and facing colours.

[michaelsbagley]

Actually Foxe that would be great!

Overall, I am more interested in creating a generic Red Coat portrayal than trying to portray a specific unit tied to a particular set of dates and single location... I know going this slightly more generic route may slightly detract for being seriously hard core accurate, but I thought it might make for a more diverse usage in re-enacting in different parts of the country.

So really any information is good information... From the little I have found surfing around the web, I have found units that were based in various parts of North America or the Caribbean with almost every colour of facings... Although blue, buff, or yellow seem to be the three colours that come up most frequently (with green being a not so distant fourth place), but that is all from potentially unreliable web based information I have found (and going a little from my memory of what I found in the various Osprey books mentioned at various points earlier in this thread).

[Misson]

Curiously, I just read something related to the topic of a seaman's clothing. It's from John Keevil's Medicine and the Navy: 1200 -1900; Volume II.

According to Keevil, records indicate that it was, for the most part, the responsibility of the sailor to provide his clothing. "No allowance for slops was normally made, nor were the Commissioners under ordinary circumstances responsible for organizing them, although they could intervene in their supply if necessary. Their only guide was that each man was allowed a sum, usually amounting to £2 for his kit if this were lost in action or by shipwreck." (Relating to the Spanish War in 1655, Keevil p. 57) He then goes on to list the clothing and its cost on the same page, which is slightly interesting.

Canvas jackets - 1/10 each     

Canvas drawers - 1/8 pair     

Cotton waistcoats - 2/2 each     

Cotton drawers - 2/0 pair

Shirts 2/9 each

Shoes - 2/4 pair

Linen stockings -/10 pair

Cotton stockings -/10 pair

(Keevil, p. 67)

Further on, he talks again about clothing in regard to the plague and worries about clothing carrying it amongst the powers that be which gives some info on colour.

The effectiveness of these measure [related to worries about the plague on navy ships] was assisted by the higher standard of cleanliness resulting from the Duke of York's order of March 2, 1663; this regulated the clothes that might be sold to a ship's company, the prices being decided by the captain in council with the master, boatswain and gunner, but not exceeding those listed: 'Monmouth caps 2/6, Blew shirts 3/6, white shirts [no price stated], Cotton wastcoats 3/0, Cotton drawers p. 3/0, Neat leather shoes 3/6, Blew neckcloathes -/5, Rugs of one breadth 4/0. Canvas suits 5/0, Blew suits 5/0'; these were to be sold above decks at the main mast in the presence of captain, officers, and the whole ship's company; their sale was at first restricted to men who had served for a minimum of two months, but this instruction was canceled in November 1664, because of the filthy state of the newly pressed men's clothes.

(There seems to have been significant inflation even in the the 17th century!)

[Red-Handed Jill]

The colours are rather dependent on the function. This is an 1840's fusilier coat I made for Jack a couple of years back:

I based the colours and such on historic pictures and records.

We're working on more coats - the 1840's gunner's coat is similar to this one, but in red with black trim/lining and with somewhat different cuffs and lapels. (I'm having Jack sew that one...)

[LadyBarbossa]

Hhmm... that is a toughy.

Generally it's tough NOT to get dragged into historical accuracies cause of the facings because the facings ( along with the lacing and buttons hinted to who the regt was).

Now you are going as a Regular soldier of the Army and not a Marine? Or a Grenadier?

Curious to see what you go with, Michael.

~Lady B

[michaelsbagley]

I am leaning towards infantry (foot) or marine, as the little snooping around I have done so far leads me to believe that grenadiers all wore those mitre style hats. And while I know this is not supposed to be about fashion, I would really rather not wear a mitre hat.

Another reference I found yesterday from the bookBritish Infantry Uniforms Since 1660 (by: Michael Barthorp) was that blue facings and linings were used by "Royal" units (perhaps exclusively?). So any unit listed as being the "Royal" this, or the "Royal" that, would likely have had blue cuffs etc. Units without Royal, would likely have used other colours.

From the same book, there was a vague unsubstantiated reference to all independent companies (barely a step up from militia) using green for linings and facings.

As for buttons, I've seen nothing definative yet, but I am starting to get the distinct impression that putting the unit numbers or emblems on the buttons is a later convention. The early 1700's is kind of the cusp where units are just beginning to be changed from being called after the name of the unit's commander to a numbered unit. The numbering process seems to have been finished up by the 1730s or 1740s. Numbered units seem to exist from the beginning of the period (if not earlier), but it still doesn't seem to be a standardized thing just quite yet.

[Capt. Sterling]

Hate to disappoint about the mitre style hats but the below are renditions of some Marines from the period...doesn't prove they all had that style cap...

Fox's Marines

Villiers’ Marines

and then there is the Met exhibit...

Naval Battle Detail Threads of Splendor not hats I'm afraid but one of the fellows could be a marine

[michaelsbagley]

Cool images Sterling... Mind if I ask what the sources for them are?

I may just have to get over my dislike of mitres in order to do this well...

Doing some more web searching, I found the below web pages... Not many images clear enough to be very useful, that and the web page author seems to use a blend of period images, and modern interpretation images... But cool all the same.

Battle of Blenheim - 1704

Battle of Ramillies - 1706

Battle of Oudenarde - 1708

Battle of Malplaquet - 1709

The above web site has lots of other really cool info for those folks interested in other time frames...

EDIT - I also found the below web site, of a group that does a late 1600s early 1700s Red Coat portrayal based int he UK. Their uniform page seems to have a fair bit of good references and period quotes on it, making it a pretty darn good resource.

Lord Orkney's Regiment of Foot web site

2nd Edit (March 17th/08)... I have also found the below google book, which is an online PARTIAL (like all of 5 or 6 pages of the entire book) copy of the Osprey Book - Marlborough's Army: 1702 - 1711

[Capt. Sterling]

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/1661t.../gibraltar.html

&

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/regiments/.../duke_index.htm

[Silver]

on the GOF site there is a photo of a RN sailor in a red waist coat, being we all have naval arms and dress of some types, and most of the event are during warm to hot weather, i think a group in a red waist coat would appear as a uniformed force.

[michaelsbagley]

This isn't anything to do with what I was looking for... But I found it in my searches, and thought it was interesting and worth sharing anyways... Correct period, wrong country...

Norwegian Army 1700 - 1720

[michaelsbagley]

In my ongoiing research into uniformed (and militia) soldiers of the GAoP, I have stumbled across a few interesting quotes recently...

The Assembly upon a memorial I had left with the Governour representing the advantages of their being uniformly cloathed as the Regular troops, had ordered every man to have a blew or red coat as the Colls. inclined, so after their being armed, cloathed and regimented, I have seen them every day exercise by the three officers whom I left with them, and who are since commissioned as second Majors to the sd. three regiments, so that I can now without the least boast assure your Lodp. that they both do the manuall exercise and fire in platoons and battalion equall to most regiments in the service.

Above quote can be found here date to 1709

I can't find it at this particular moment, but I found a similar citation from 1705 (I think) about a militia unit in Barbados also following the practice of wearing Red Coats in emulation of regular forces. I'll post that when I find it again.

[michaelsbagley]

May 28.  34. Mr Howe's report upon the petition of four captains of invalids concerning their clothing and the manner of their payment. The clothing formerly furnished by the controllers he found as bad as was possible to imagine; 5,000l. would be sufficient to clothe the four companies. Dated 28 May 1707. The petition referred to. The allowance of clothing to each soldier was, once in two years, one coat, one pair of breeches, one hat, one pair of shoes, one pair of stockings, and two shirts, two neckcloths, and a sword and belt. On the last clothing they had but one shirt and one neckcloth, which could not be washed until worn out. Minuted:—“Read 28th May 1707. Mr Howe is to subsist these 4 compies as he doth ye guards & garrisons, and Mr St John to p[re]pare a wt for a regulation of the subsistence accordgly; and as to the clothing, my Lord leaves it to Mr Howe to contract for the same in ye best manner that may be.” 2 pages.

Quote found on this page

Interesting insight on the standard issue of clothing within the army.

[michaelsbagley]

And here is the mostly complete prototype.

I still need to do a more appropriate hat and finish the waistcoat (which is in the blue)... I hope to eventually replace the buttons with domed ones. I like the current buttons, they just don't have the look I was going for. I am undecided as to use dome brass or pewter, but I am leaning towards pewter. There are some other little details to finish it off, but it is definately complete enough to begin use.

So what do you all think?

[LadyBarbossa]

That is VERY awesome, Michael! Brilliant work there, mate.

So... which regiment will you be portraying then?

Curious as I didn't see it (or overlooked it)... did the early 18th c uniforms have lacing, or special buttons, or incorporate certain colored lapels or cuffs just as they did in the mid and late 18th c? I know the the Rev War, lots of Brit Regiments were identified by the type of lace, buttons and colored cuffs, lapels or even different colored uniforms. I haven't dove deep into pre- Rev War military much.

~Lady B

Edited October 18, 2008 by LadyBarbossa