Patterns

[Salty]

Barring use of Kass lovely patterns fer time being.....Kass i swear to cross over to historical acuracy once i try to succesfully complete an outfit i have. :)

Back to me question an before anyone grimaces or says eeek bear with me fer a minute o twa

I picked up Butterick Pattern B4483 "making history" "wench costume"

Is this in part acceptable or can I change it as to make it acceptable?

Thoughts, comments, and HELP would be Greatly apperciated

One throughly outa area for ye salty potter

cheers,

Salty

[kass]

Salty,

I swear to you I'm not just trying to get you to buy my patterns. I want to answer your question.

But before I do that, I have to ask you what you mean by "acceptable"?

If you mean acceptable historically for the Golden Age of Piracy, there is nothing about typical "wench costume" that is historically documentably for any time period (barring, of course, 2007 Ren Faire). It is an invented outfit that has a life of its own. It has no historical elements.

If you mean acceptable as a Ren Faire wench costume, then it is perfectly acceptable as it is.

No harm, no foul, sweetie. Although this really doesn't belong in Twill if you're not discussion historical stuff. It belongs in Plunder. I'm moving it there now.

[Rumba Rue]

Sadly, all wench outfits started from the 'original' Renaissance Faire when it started in Aguora, Calif. courtesy of the costumers of that event. No they truly aren't correct, but hey just like the 'pirate' outfits that don't even come close to being correct, nobody but the true historical person is going to care.

One of the major reasons many gals don't make different types of bodices to wear for different eras, is not only the cost, but the lack of true information being put out for the general public about it. Plus if a gal is doing both types of events, it's just easier to have one type of bodice to use for both.

(It's one of the major reasons I use 'Ren' type bodices for some pirate events, cuz I do both-but I've also done 'period' garb as well- it just depends on A. weather B. How I'm feeling C. comfort)

[Salty]

Salty,

I swear to you I'm not just trying to get you to buy my patterns. I want to answer your question.

But before I do that, I have to ask you what you mean by "acceptable"?

If you mean acceptable historically for the Golden Age of Piracy, there is nothing about typical "wench costume" that is historically documentably for any time period (barring, of course, 2007 Ren Faire). It is an invented outfit that has a life of its own. It has no historical elements.

If you mean acceptable as a Ren Faire wench costume, then it is perfectly acceptable as it is.

No harm, no foul, sweetie. Although this really doesn't belong in Twill if you're not discussion historical stuff. It belongs in Plunder. I'm moving it there now.

Kass and rest...

like said wanted to ask.... thought to use the pattern as a basis for least petticoats and top of chemise by adding length to the shirt. forgetting bout the bodice entirely will work out stays .

mainly wanted to try to make an " outfit" to get practice on doing it barring that the 'pratice run" so to speak have planned for handfasting/ wedding when that day finally does happen. So i want to do the best job i can on it

acceptable means i find out period patterns and clothes....also meant how much if any of the pattern could i use as a starting point.

an sorry if i posted i n wrong forum, there are drawbacks to a screen reader and the pub some days

[Mary Diamond]

Hi Salty!

I can appreciate your question, and dilemma. IMHO, I like the character flexibility offered by patterns such as Simplicity and Making History. There are just days when it is more fun to be a girl in breeches and a corset/bodice, than to have to deal with 8 bazillion yards of skirts and trains and sleeves and whatnot. Not to mention I have been making costumes for years before coming across re-enactors, so have a case of Oh-Isn't-That-Pretty patterns and material awaiting my attention, that are most definitely not period correct (artistic interpretation, more like)!

But, now I find myself as part of a re-enacting crewe. They are kind and understanding, but, being a re-enactment group, they want attention paid to period correct details. Which means breeches belong on guys (or girls portraying guys), skirts and stays on girls. BUT - if there is an event which is less historically accurate (a little more Hollywood), then I can get away with wearing my Simplicity outfit and my bucket boots! (Definitely not GAoP, but ridiculously hot, nonetheless).

So, all that said, (and like Kass says) it really is up to you and what you think you will be wearing it for (i.e. Renn Faire - you'd fit in just fine!). Not all pirate groups are historically correct/re-enactors. But we all have fun! :)

Best of luck to you, and take your time and enjoy it. Once you get the hang of patterns, it is addictive. :)

Mary

[CrazyCholeBlack]

oh man, I'm going to show myself bias right now. There really is no reason to spend the money on a "starter" pattern if you can do a little self measuring & follow the FREE directions on-line for the basic parts that will give you historically correct beginner pieces.

need a corset/bodice/stays?

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/custompat/index.html

if you explore there a little more there are instructions for making the basic pattern tabbed, adding straps, & information on boning etc.

Need a shift. They're super easy & just take a few measurements really.

http://www.marquise.de/en/1700/howto/fraue...18chemise.shtml

And then all you really need is a skirt. Why spend the money on the fabric only to put in an elastic waist when making a period correct knife pleated skirt doesn't take any longer to make.

http://slightly-obsessed.blogspot.com/2006...e-pleating.html

(& no I'm not intentionally spamming my blog, it's just the only knife pleating tutorial I know of off the top of my head)

TADAH! You've just saved the money of buying a pattern & you've got a few period correct pieces to build off of later!

Enjoy!

[Mary Diamond]

Great links, Chole! :)

I was just operating under the assumption Salty wanted to make use of her existing pattern, but with free patterns available online, well, they are definitely useful for a person willing to try them!

Mary

[Patrick Hand]

Just some thoughts....

This is from a male's perspective, but it kinda illistrates the idea.....

When I started out playing Pyrate, There was not a lot of information on period Pyrates (look at some of the old garb/clothing post...) So I used Howard Pyle painting as references to make my garb.... It had the right kinda look, (Hollywood) but wasn't really period....

As I learned more, I started making my stuff more period, but used cotton or non-authentic fabric (it was cheaper that way.....) but the cut was almost right......

Now I'm re-making almost all of it using appriot fabric, and hand finishing everything....... In the last two years, there has been more information on what Pyrates really wore....

Someone new to Pyracy, can follow the same path, or can use the newer information and skip the less-than-authentic parts....

Not all Pyrates "care" if thiere garb is authentic or not.... but as the level of knowledge grows, the Hollywood Pyrates are going to look more and more out of place......

Just because Renn. Faires make-up history, do we do the same thing?

I know this isn't Twill..... But if someone is going to take the time to do something.... why continue doing it wrong?

Cost is a factor, linen, wool and hemp DO cost more than cotton.... and if cotton is the best you can afford, no one is going to walk up to you and check that closely.....But you will know the difference....

[Salty]

the links are great....thank you for them

yes i wanted to use a pattern i had purchased but i can use those just the same...saves tryiing to read the print on said pattern and instead making and taping the instructions meself.

Least went with right cloth linen and wool for now to try it may not be just perfect but kinda close

and yes i read what i can and ask when i dont know which is quite a bit ...had to do the same with pottery why would clothes be any differnt tis me way of thinking.

going for as accurate as possable for time and talent, not into teh whole ren faire thing but not a stich counter either...ok not true if i dont count i lose my place.

and if am to do anythign want to do it right no one fer doing much half arsed.

so continue along and as i learn to pass on what have learned as ye have all so kindly done

[Red-Handed Jill]

I've been told that the Butterick 4254 is a fairly accurate stays pattern.

[Silkie McDonough]

Thanks for the links Chole! Makes my proposed clothing seem less of a daunting task.

[Duchess]

You're pleating tutorial is nice Chole.

I actually prefer the 3-1 pleat to gathering. I make tiered skirts and the standard tiering is three tiers, each with a 3-1 ratio. If you're doing the math at home this can mean trying to gather an enormous number of yards (9-15 of them) to 1/3 their size. And thats only the last tier alone. So I pleat and invariable people tell me from normal conversation distance you really cant tell the difference. Particularly if I make the pleats small, about 1/3 to 1/2 the size you've detailed.

[Salty]

Yet another clothing question and not sure where to post it so I came back here........with all fabrics, methods, patterns etc. my next question deals with thread used,

what is the best thread to use for wear and use in garments and such?

[Rats]

I would like to add Linen really is not that much more expensive.

Here's a link I got from my crew... Gotta love em!

http://www.fabrics-store.com/

And also for some wool:

http://www.periodfabric.com/default.htm

Now having served the Union for years as a cavalryman, I have to say that the wool during the summer can kill a man...

Which is why I cannot believe I'm working on a wool waist coat.....

I also picked up some linen and plan to make most of my goods from something lighter!!!

I just got done prick stitching for the last three days and probably have another 2 to go... FOR a VEST!!!!

Ah well... back to it!!!

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Salty, you can use any thread you want really. I used linen from William Booth Draper. They have a variety of weights depending on the weight of the fabric. I've also used silk that I purchase from my local quilt shop. The interesting thing about silk thread is that it will reflect the color of the fabric to an extent. So white silk works for most light colors. Also if you're following period correct stitches the thread will be almost invisible. For things like eyelets and button holes you can use heavier linen, split up embroidery thread or button hole twist. I haven't found that any of the different threads make the onerous task of eyelets/button holes easier. Man I don't like those things.

[Salty]

Thank ye.......button holes just view em as a game of paitence

[William Brand]

My friend called me up and was very excited to tell me that he had bought a Jack Sparrow costume from Simplicity in anticipation of PIP this year. I was very quiet on my end of the phone for a moment, since I was quite unsure what to say at first. On the one hand he was very excited, but on the other, I was cringing a little.

I finally had to speak my peace about buying authentic costumes over what I consider more of a "shortcut costume". Fortunately, he was delighted that I could point him in the right direction. He just took the other pattern back, so Kass will probably get another order soon.

[Silkie McDonough]

oh man, I'm going to show myself bias right now. There really is no reason to spend the money on a "starter" pattern if you can do a little self measuring & follow the FREE directions on-line for the basic parts that will give you historically correct beginner pieces.

need a corset/bodice/stays?

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/custompat/index.html

if you explore there a little more there are instructions for making the basic pattern tabbed, adding straps, & information on boning etc.

I used the tabbed corset from this site and ...well, looks good to me. I have to cut the tie yet but I wanted to be sure of the length for putting it on myself before cutting it.

Cost? Electricity and time. I got yhe pattern off the internet. I was in possession of the fabric already. The boning is nylon lumber strapping from Home Depot ...it was free. I had the thread and the lacing at home. Therefore ...it was free to make it.

Ladies who are ...err, above average, such as myself, be sure to wear a snug fitting bra, perhaps a sports bra when taking your measurements. I had on a plunge bra and the pattern was about three inches too large.

I also suggest that you do test the size before finishing it. I didn't and although it fits if I loose even a half inch it will not close for me.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Silkie McDonough

[William Brand]

Maeve says. "Niiiicely sewn and pretty colors."

I agree.

[Silkie McDonough]

Well, now I have to make a priod correct chemise. This one is nice but not period.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

excellent work Silkie. And it's my favorite word, FREE!

[HildeKitten]

My friend called me up and was very excited to tell me that he had bought a Jack Sparrow costume from Simplicity in anticipation of PIP this year. I was very quiet on my end of the phone for a moment, since I was quite unsure what to say at first. On the one hand he was very excited, but on the other, I was cringing a little.

I finally had to speak my peace about buying authentic costumes over what I consider more of a "shortcut costume". Fortunately, he was delighted that I could point him in the right direction. He just took the other pattern back, so Kass will probably get another order soon.

I have that Simplicity pattern, I made a coat from it for one of my brothers (who wanted a fantasy pirate costume). I'm not keen on it at all to be honest, it's just so costumy, and unnecessarily complicated. Well it's not complicated to put together, it goes together real easy, it's just that the godets are unnecessary and utterly time consuming.

[Salty]

Tis looking grand lass

[Kathyrn Ramsey]

If you are measuring yourself for stays the bust measurment is taken without a bra.

And if you are leary of cutting your good fabric, this is going to sound strange, but cut the pattern out of corrugated cardboard first the boning direction in the direction of the corrogation. Then you put in your lacing holes and have someone lace you up and wear it around for a little while. The reason is so that you know how it will fit and that it fits properly before you make it from the fabric. Also if you have access to a basket making company, or chair caning you can use that for the boning. It is flexable but will support close to what the whalebone would have. Also being natural it will breathe easier than the plastic ties...

Just what I have discovered as I have begun making my stays. Getting away from the metal boning.

[Silkie McDonough]

If you are measuring yourself for stays the bust measurement is taken without a bra.

Unfortunatly, without a bra would not work either since gravity is not a womans friend over the years. Hence why I suggest a sports bra or the like.