Mastering Things

[Caraccioli]

"It's always hard. Ethics are about what you're willing to lose. And you can't lose every day or you'd be out of business." -"Buzz" McCoy

Of course, the last statement focused the statement on money, but the core statement - "Ethics are about what you're willing to lose," seems on first blush to be true to me. Whenever you face a "moral dilemma," what you're actually facing is whether you want to sacrifice something you want in order to stay true to your (or at least someone's) theoretical moral code. So, in essence, you're decided on whether you want "to lose" out on something.

So then is ethics always the "science" of self-punishment as this statement suggests? Here is where I begin to disagree with Mr. McCoy. For, in denying yourself some gratuitous pleasure, you gain other advantages. As a base example, let's say you have a more code regarding intimate liaisons. What host potential problems do you avoid by confining your activity? Some of them are obvious, STDs, the expense of treating such, protective measures, resultant single-parent children and so forth. Others are more esoteric such as the stress involved with the tenuous, yet real, emotional links, worry over the above and certainly the disagreement between the two consenting adults over what to do with any after effects. (This is to set aside all non-consenting intertwines, which are generally considered to be morally repugnant.) There are also the truly ethereal ideas that dwell somewhere in the subconscious about moral violations, which, admittedly, are highly personal and based in the individual's personal world-view.

Suffice it to say that, in the above overly-simplified example, there are both tangible and intangible benefits to obeying a moral imperative. On the other side of the balance scale seems to me to be a instantaneous gratification and, if the relationship is significant but not completely committed, perhaps a growing closer. I propose that this is true in nearly any other example.

Does it then make sense that the master observes morality as a facet of their mastery? In fact, it would seem to me to be true nearly always. To take a more "mastery-oriented" approach than the above example, it seems to me that the master would always be interested in the optimizing the craft of their mastery (whatever that may be - it need not be confined to tangible products of mastery, although they lend themselves most directly to this discussion.) In fact, to behave in a way that is not ethical to the craft of mastery seems to me to undermine the very precept of mastery.

Can the master behave with great ethical consciousness in their field of mastery and yet behave with less elsewhere? Certainly so, in the way that masters are recognized in our society. The Western world is rife with examples of this - outstanding mastery in one facet of life and utter ethical failure elsewhere. In fact, we reward and celebrate such in many instances. We are told to focus on a niche and pour all of our energy, talent and such into that niche. While all of our time is spent focusing on that niche, other areas are not constrained by the same behavior and we can create a lopsided, yet often societally-celebrated, sort of persona.

So where is the balance between ethics and moving through the world? In some ways, it seems to me that we a more a collection of the principles that make up our existence than we are of our accumulations and actions. Yet our actions must impact our principles. In an idea situation, our actions would be a natural extension of our principles, but, failing that, our principles became a second-rate collection of ideas that grow out of our actions.

Ethics are about what you're willing to lose." -"Buzz" McCoy

Perhaps in one sense this is true, but I think it is really just a matter of perception. Because while you may lose the short-term benefits of the moment, you gain the long-term benefits of a ethical structure. And, as I tried to show, these are both tangible and intangible. So while Mr. McCoy sees loss, I see gain.

[Caraccioli]

I was listening to podcasts from Radio Australia...this one from last week's All in the Mind which focuses on psychology and mental processes. Anyhow, the host was talking to a panel of people on happiness and something one of the panelists, Corey Keyes, said really struck a strong chord. To quote:

"...I'm convinced more than ever we now live in what's can be described as the hedonic age, which is...and there's good reasons for this. We've moved away from placing our trust and tethering ourselves to institutions, where we feel most authentic. Institutions provide standards of excellence. As we lost trust in those institutions we were left with nothing else but our impulse, our emotions. And our students [from his study] reflect a culture that says well, you're left on your own, what do you trust most? When I feel good I trust it, when I felt bad I trust it. So we're left to our emotional life because we've lost trust in most of our institutions. So people tether themselves to the last bastion, which is their internal emotional life. Now I think...you talked about prisons...that is in some ways a prison as well."

Many psychologists believe that emotions proceed from thoughts. Of course, our thoughts are composed of what we are experiencing and are not necessarily (or even likely) genuinely factual. Our reality is in many ways what we decide it to be. Our emotions are reactions to that created reality. (I consider reaction to be a poor response to a situation.) Ergo, our emotions are often knee-jerk responses to what we think is going on.

Since I've come to that conclusion, I have been able to monitor and change how I deal with situations, especially trying circumstances. Sometimes it's nothing more than recognizing that I'm dealing poorly with some crises because I have perceived it in a poor way. While this may not create a better emotional response directly, it indirectly forces me to at least accept that I have chosen the current emotion on some level and can change it if I so choose.

Curiously, I had previously been thinking about the impact we allow external sources of information impact our emotional state. Music, movies and other media can all make us view the world through an externally dictated perceptive lens - basically giving our thought patterns, and thus our emotions to some degree, over to someone else. I have lately been reading a series of articles on the economy which basically point out all these positive indicators that are not widely reported or discussed. Thus many people don't perceive the economy to be strong, despite all sorts of evidence to the contrary.

As an aside, I think the economy is a fascinating creature. I first came across the idea that the future of the economy is largely based on people's perception of the near future when I was listening to Napoleon Hill explain his experience working on FDR's staff. Roosevelt felt that if the people only believed that things were getting better, they would start to spend money and the economy would improve. Hill made the case that this was the strategy used to end the Great Depression - they got the message out through the media, the churches and the government resulting in an improved economy. But that's another discussion, I suppose.

The point is that how we perceive something appears to dictate how it will be. Emotions are a reaction to this and thus (IMO) are mostly unreliable indicators for making ourselves happy. In fact, in my experience, when I have been "happy," I have often failed to notice until after the moment of happiness was most acute! I suspect many people would agree. Taking it a step further still, memories of happiness are tied directly to how we perceive the events we have experienced. What one person may have experienced as a happy series of events can be turned on its head by another person who will pick out all the problems and inconveniences of the same series of events. To them, the events were unhappy. (Happiness is a notoriously unreliable indicator from what I've read. Yet, there's lots of info in the press on it recently.)

I think it sort of comes down to the fact that if you have structure -not necessarily "externally enforced" structure, rather "self-enforced" structure (at least in my case) - you are more likely to be happy in the long run. This is how I understand Mr. Keyes' statement. The movement into hedonism would thus be ultimately doomed as a reliable method for achieving long-term happiness.

I like it. (But then I thought of it.)

[PyratePhil]

The point is that how we perceive something appears to dictate how it will be.

I disagree.

I think that how we perceive something will dictate how it APPEARS to be, not how it actually IS.

I could perceive an elephant as being an airplane. I could visualize his ears being the main wings, his tail the rudder, and his trunk the...I don't know - refueling umbilical?

Anyway, no matter HOW hard and HOW well I perceive that elephant as being a plane, in reality he is not. He's merely an elephant.

Too silly an example? Too extreme? OK... I perceive that you're an evil person, because you say things I don't always agree with. Now, it doesn't matter that that disagreement doesn't make you evil; but in my perception of things, let's say it does.

Are you now in fact evil? Will my perception of you cause you to go out and do evil things? I highly doubt it.

Perception is a gremlin, a little joker who always wants you to see things the way they are NOT. I think the trick is to go beyond perception and enter the realm of direct experience.

[Caraccioli]

I thought the implication might be in the statement, but for clarity's sake:

"The point is that how we perceive something appears to dictate how it will be for us."

If you perceive me as evil, then you will interpret every action I take in light of your perception. I see that go on all the time. If the neighbors become the mental enemy, everything they do is interpreted as a threat to the perceiver. If they improve the landscape, "they did it to make our yard look bad." Etc.

As for the elephant...not sure what to make of that one. You can believe it is an elephant if you like and for you it may seem to be so. But I wouldn't tell too many people about your belief.

Just because you believe in something doesn't mean it is that way. It's just how you will mentally experience it until you believe differently. (Want proof? Look at how many people think anthropogenic Global Warming is the main cause of the temperature change. )

[PyratePhil]

I thought the implication might be in the statement, but for clarity's sake:

"The point is that how we perceive something appears to dictate how it will be for us."

If you perceive me as evil, then you will interpret every action I take in light of your perception. I see that go on all the time. If the neighbors become the mental enemy, everything they do is interpreted as a threat to the perceiver. If they improve the landscape, "they did it to make our yard look bad." Etc.

As for the elephant...not sure what to make of that one. You can believe it is an elephant if you like and for you it may seem to be so. But I wouldn't tell too many people about your belief.

Just because you believe in something doesn't mean it is that way. It's just how you will mentally experience it until you believe differently. (Want proof? Look at how many people think anthropogenic Global Warming is the main cause of the temperature change. )

Implications often lead to false perceptions.

I'm glad to see that you finally acknowledged in your last paragraph that no matter what amount of perception, implication, or other filtering is done, none of it changes the TRUE nature of what is being observed. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Therefore, if you just let things alone and let them be themselves, without filtering them, you will be more likely to see the truth.

Don't think my belief about elephants is valid? Ask the thousands of people every year that ride Dumbo.

Put THAT in yer magic feather and smoke it!

[Caraccioli]

Magic feather?

"O mighty warrior of great fighting stock

Might I enquire to ask, eh, what's up doc?"

"I'm going to kill the rabbit!!"

"Oh mighty hunter t'will be quite a task

How will you do it, might I enquire to ask?"

"I will do it with my spear and magic helmet!"

"Your spear and magic helmet?"

"Spear & magic helmet!"

"Magic helmet?"

"Magic helmet!

"Magic helmet."

"Yes, magic helmet and I will give you a sample..."

More to point...

"Did you ever see an elephant fly?"

"Well, I've seen a horse fly."

"Ah, I've seen a dragon fly."

"Hee-hee. I've seen a house fly."

"I seen all that too!

I seen a peanut stand.

And heard a rubber band.

I seen a needle that winked its eye!"

"But I've been, done, seen about everything,

When I see a elephant fly."

"What'd you say boy?"

"I said when I see a elephant fly."

(My favorite song in the whole movie. But I'm judging it...)

Actually, as I've said before, I don't think we can ever really see the Truth. We are always filtering and perceiving - mostly without realizing that we're doing it. Even the masters. My belief (or perception) is that that is how our minds are structured. So rather than all agreeing as to what is the Truth, we agree on a consensus as to what the truth might be (or, in some people's cases, should be) and then we stick with that until proven wrong. Then we make up a new approximation to the Truth and the wheel keeps turning.

However, if you think you can eliminate all perception, go for it. Just don't be surprised if you decide to announce what you perceive to be a truth and few agree. (Of course, you won't care because you will perceive that they are judging things based on what is clearly a flawed perceptive lens.

[Jacky Tar]

We all tend t' filter wot' our senses perceive. How conscious we are o' those filters or the judgement calls we make wit' 'em is wot's in question. I'm sure neither o' ye would argue that this ability is useful an desirable sometimes.

The questions we should ask is how conscious are ye of yer own consciousness? Can ye quiet yer self enough t' experience things as raw sensory perceptions?

[PyratePhil]

You beat me to the punch - I won't care what others think - I ALREADY don't care for the most part.

Even if I DID care, how could I change their perceptions of me, except by acting falsely?

LOVE the Bugs reference - that's how I've always thought opera should be!

But that Disney clip? Oh, boy - talk about something that's probably been censored to pieces by now...

[PyratePhil]

We all tend t' filter wot' our senses perceive. How conscious we are o' those filters or the judgement calls we make wit' 'em is wot's in question. I'm sure neither o' ye would argue that this ability is useful an desirable sometimes.

The questions we should ask is how conscious are ye of yer own consciousness? Can ye quiet yer self enough t' experience things as raw sensory perceptions?

Aye 'n' aye.

'Tisn't easy, nor even desirable most times - but when ye DO practice it, it's something very special.

At least, until the damn neighbors start up their industrial-grade lawn mower - I SWEAR they do it just to bug me!

[Caraccioli]

Isn't that funny? The implications of that song never even occurred to me. I just like the way it goes.

Watch? Great fun and very enlightening. Watch the watcher watch? Mind bogglingly fascinating. Good point. It's amazing what you notice about yourself when you chose to step back and see what you're doing. I sometimes wonder how far out my perceptive view I am breaking, though. Even when playing at this, you still don't know what you don't know.

[PyratePhil]

Very true.

On this very board today I encountered an instance of erroneous perceptions. It doesn't take much, does it? A misread word, or a misplaced one...a remembrance of past associations...a defensive attitude...

Seriously, if you weren't here I don't think I'd be coming back. It figures one of the better metaphysical partners I find would be on a pirate board.

[Red Cat Jenny]

Silly..I have at least mastered that ok well maybe it's hereditary...yes most definately..

[Caraccioli]

Well, thanks! I, too, enjoy conversing about this. There seem to be two kinds of people; those who like to read such stuff and discuss it and those who can't understand why I write such tiresomely lengthy posts.

Now, if I could get you, blackjohn and Duchess all in the same post discussing philosophy and metaphysics that would be ideal (for me - you guys would have to sort the rest of it out amongst yourselves. ) Alas, they haven't been around much.

"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig." -Blondie - the Man with No Name

[PyratePhil]

Well, thanks! I, too, enjoy conversing about this. There seem to be two kinds of people; those who like to read such stuff and discuss it and those who can't understand why I write such tiresomely lengthy posts.

Now, if I could get you, blackjohn and Duchess all in the same post discussing philosophy and metaphysics that would be ideal (for me - you guys would have to sort the rest of it out amongst yourselves. ) Alas, they haven't been around much.

"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig." -Blondie - the Man with No Name

Yeah - I'm kind of the stray dog of the Net myself...I wander around with big eyes; a forum will let me in; they play with me for a while; then, when they discover I have fleas and am rabid, they throw me out.

Well, I know BlackJohn was just having some fun down MD way - saw his pics on MySpace. Looked like fun! As for Mlle. Duchess, I don't know - perhaps she's off splitting atoms or beating quarks or something...

"Blondiiieeee! Don't leave me like this, Blondiiieeee!"

[Caraccioli]

I have never yet found the perfect forum. Where can I find a place where they discuss pirates, educational theories and testing, Deloreans, drawing, Classical music, creativity, metaphysics, regular physics, anti-Global Warming rhetoric, Richard Feynman, psychology, Myers-Briggs testing, movies (I do so love movies), writing, website design, engineering, locomotives, Key West, Mad Magazine (the old ones that were good, not the new ones), James Bond, Buckminster Fuller, Star Wars, coin collecting, ethics, plate block stamp collecting (but only occasionally), movie soundtracks, training people about self-help, personal responsibility, SCUBA diving, economics, Australia, AC Bulldog Mack Trucks, business, Warner Brothers cartoons, Jazz, the inner workings of the brain, magazine design and publishing, Haunted House design and just ideas in general (And that's just the things I can think right now)? No place. So I just discuss them whereever I am at. (Whether anyone's listening or not.) I wonder what I will be interested in next?

I looked at MySpace briefly. I'm too old school. I have a vanity website that no one knows about.

[PyratePhil]

• *pirates - OK, I'm there - but only fantasy
  *educational theories and testing - ehh...not really - had enough of that with MUD (see below) - plus was married to an Early Childhood Education type
  *Deloreans - never got into them as such, although they intrigue me - I'm more a Vette guy (had 3)
  *drawing - blood? charcoal? finger-painting?
  *Classical music - taught myself "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" and "Air on a G-String" on a Fender-Rhodes-88 and original-model Moog Mini
  *creativity - don't have any
  *metaphysics - "MUD" - My Useless Degree, as a ladyfriend always told me
  *regular physics - as opposed to "irregular"? Not really into it except as it applies to beating people up LOL
  *anti-Global Warming rhetoric - GW is just a by-product of Eureka research - didn't you know?
  *Richard Feynman - who's that?
  *psychology - "MOUD" - My Other Useless Degree
  *Myers-Briggs testing - *INFP groans* - have I got a site for you - I'll email
  *movies (I do so love movies) - very selective in this respect - or should I say, eclectic
  *writing - oh, yeah - big time - can't ye tell?
  *website design - yep - I'm there
  *engineering - never understood the appeal of running a train
  *locomotives - ibid
  *Key West - OH yeah - I want to live there again before I die - actually, I want to live there UNTIL I die
  *Mad Magazine (the old ones that were good, not the new ones) - agreed
  *James Bond - one of my childhood idols - well, him and Capt. Kangaroo
  *Buckminster Fuller - again, I fail to see the appeal of the inventor of Fuller's Earth, but different strokes...
  *Star Wars - funny, but I never really got into it - Star Trek, tho, yeah
  *coin collecting - used to - now I only practice coin spending
  *ethics - have none
  *plate block stamp collecting (but only occasionally) - sorry - stamps bored me to dizziness - must have been all that licking
  *movie soundtracks - depends on the movie
  *training people about self-help - my life work - well, that and pleasing the female population of the US
  *personal responsibility - have none
  *SCUBA diving - used to - see "Key West"
  *economics - have none
  *Australia - hmmm...used to be interested - not sure now - I do have a few friends there, though
  *AC Bulldog Mack Trucks - if that bulldog EVER gets up on his hind legs at ME, I'll knock him back to his Momma's womb!
  *business - have none
  *Warner Brothers cartoons - OH YEAH!
  *Jazz - certain types - hate wailing saxes; love Chick Corea
  *the inner workings of the brain - have none
  *magazine design and publishing - eh...only principles shared with web design
  *Haunted House design - I suppose it would be an intriguing concept, but never had the opportunity
  *just ideas in general - have none
  

Now if THIS didn't scare off the rest of the population here, NOTHING will!

PS

Awww...MySpace is mondo coolio - where else could you have hot chicks wanting to be your friend and have you look at their site?

[Caraccioli]

I sincerely doubted anyone would even read that!

• *pirates - OK, I'm there - but only fantasy
  I think it was the combination of skeletons with pirates that really hooked me as a kid. The historical interests me theoretically because it is actually similar, yet different, than the fantasy. The period thing hasn't completely caught my fancy. We shall see what we shall see come late November in Key West.
  *educational theories and testing - ehh...not really - had enough of that with MUD (see below) - plus was married to an Early Childhood Education type
  I like the revolutionary, "throw the poorly designed system overboard and plan it better for today" approach
  *Deloreans - never got into them as such, although they intrigue me - I'm more a Vette guy (had 3) -
  Vette's and DMCs are mortal enemies! (It's just that most Vette folks didn't know it. Kind of like the mosquito attacking the elephant, I think.) I think the design is cool.
  *drawing - blood? charcoal? finger-painting?
  colored pencil

http://www.markck.com/drawing.htm
*Classical music - taught myself "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" and "Air on a G-String" on a Fender-Rhodes-88 and original-model Moog Mini
I haven't played an instrument in decades, but I tend to like music without lyrics. Strauss' Waltzes, Bizet's Carmen, Ravel, Gershwin, etc.
*creativity - don't have any
Everyone has it, some don't develop it.
*metaphysics - "MUD" - My Useless Degree, as a ladyfriend always told me
There's a degree?!
*regular physics - as opposed to "irregular"? Not really into it except as it applies to beating people up LOL
The fact the parts of the world are so contrary to our intuition fascinates me.
*anti-Global Warming rhetoric - GW is just a by-product of Eureka research - didn't you know?
*Richard Feynman - who's that? -
A really wacky physicist who was into bongos, biology, picking locks, codes, art and other variegated things. An iconoclast. I seem to like iconoclasts.
*psychology - "MOUD" - My Other Useless Degree
I'm working on a useless degree in this field. Experimental Psych interests me. (Clinical bores me.)
*Myers-Briggs testing - *INFP groans* - have I got a site for you - I'll email
Send it along! For awhile I was a member of an INTJ forum. It was like swimming with hungry sharks. I learned a lot, though. I also made what appears to be a life-long friend there.
*movies (I do so love movies) - very selective in this respect - or should I say, eclectic
A wise choice
*writing - oh, yeah - big time - can't ye tell?
I actually write a monthly success newsletter. Oddly, I never thought it was your cup of tea, so I never mentioned it to you.
*website design - yep - I'm there
Fun, fun, fun
*engineering - never understood the appeal of running a train
Uh huh. Maybe I should have said "designing"
*locomotives - ibid
*Key West - OH yeah - I want to live there again before I die - actually, I want to live there UNTIL I die
Freaky place, freaky people - good time
*Mad Magazine (the old ones that were good, not the new ones) - agreed
*James Bond - one of my childhood idols - well, him and Capt. Kangaroo
*Buckminster Fuller - again, I fail to see the appeal of the inventor of Fuller's Earth, but different strokes...
He certainly went off in his own direction, though. I admire that.
*Star Wars - funny, but I never really got into it - Star Trek, tho, yeah
*coin collecting - used to - now I only practice coin spending
Admittedly, I'm not very serious. I just pick stuff out of change anymore.
*ethics - have none -

*plate block stamp collecting (but only occasionally) - sorry - stamps bored me to dizziness - must have been all that licking
*movie soundtracks - depends on the movie -
Instrumental music again
*training people about self-help - my life work - well, that and pleasing the female population of the US
This aspect has always puzzled me because in my perception these two things are at odds - but that is just my perception
*personal responsibility - have none
(PR as opposed to diffused responsibility or irresponsibility. A favorite quote of mine..."You are where you are and what you are because of the choices you have made." Don't like one or the other? Make new choices
*SCUBA diving - used to - see "Key West"
It can actually be sort of dull after you get over the initial thrill, I think. My brother-in-law likes accumulating dives and going up levels. My other brother-in-law likes photographing and categorizing the fish he's seen. I just think it's an interesting thing to do on occasion. (I've always wanted to dive the site of a wrecked GAoP ship in the Keys. I mean, I know there's nothing much to see, but just the experience of being where one once lay...it would be cool. Shipwrecks are sort of cool - unless you're on the ship.
*economics - have none
*Australia - hmmm...used to be interested - not sure now I do have a few friends there, though
I must confess, it is quite like the US, only a bit more laid back. I was just fascinated as a teen and it's one of those things I find interesting even after having gone.
*AC Bulldog Mack Trucks - if that bulldog EVER gets up on his hind legs at ME, I'll knock him back to his Momma's womb! -
It's that design thing again. An AC Mack just looks cool. I almost bought one about 15 years ago before I came to my senses. (Then lost them again and bought a Delorean instead. ) http://goldenagetruckmuseum.com/featured_truck.shtml
*business - have none
*Warner Brothers cartoons - OH YEAH!
*Jazz - certain types - hate wailing saxes; love Chick Corea
Instrumental music - it frees the mind. Lyrics weigh my thinking down.
*the inner workings of the brain - have none
I suspect we'll not be able to figure it out entirely, but it's still interesting. "You cannot solve a problem from the same level of thinking that created it." --Albert Einstein
*magazine design and publishing - eh...only principles shared with web design
I was an editor for several years. It was interesting. Deadlines were a pain, though.
*Haunted House design - I suppose it would be an intriguing concept, but never had the opportunity
Design again + skeletons. I should have put skeletons on my list.
*just ideas in general - have none

[blackjohn]

Now, if I could get you, blackjohn and Duchess all in the same post discussing philosophy and metaphysics that would be ideal

I'm sure that would be entertaining, though I will only admit to having questions, and no answers.

[blackjohn]

Well, I know BlackJohn was just having some fun down MD way - saw his pics on MySpace. Looked like fun!

Fwiw, I poke my head in here at least once a day just to keep my eye on the forum I mod. But my vow is I cannot post unless I have exercised that day... and a vow is a vow.

As for those pics... click here!

[PyratePhil]

I sincerely doubted anyone would even read that!

LOL - a writer is nothing if they don't read voraciously.

Related - of COURSE I love writing - several books and dozens of articles published, more to come (hopefully). Granted, a success newsletter might not exactly be my cup of tea, seeing as how I'm such a complete and utter failure in life, but still worth a read I'm sure.

*metaphysics - "MUD" - My Useless Degree, as a ladyfriend always told me

There's a degree?!

LOL OOOhhhh yea - from NYU, no less! It was an "experimental" program for several years - it just so happened that when I finished my Psych degree the Metaphysics doctorate course was starting up, so I jumped on for the ride.

*Richard Feynman - who's that? -

A really wacky physicist who was into bongos, biology, picking locks, codes, art and other variegated things. An iconoclast. I seem to like iconoclasts.

I apologize - I really should make better use of the smileys here - especially the "sarcasm" one.

*psychology - "MOUD" - My Other Useless Degree

I'm working on a useless degree in this field. Experimental Psych interests me. (Clinical bores me.)

They can both be fascinating - if you have the right prof.

*Myers-Briggs testing - *INFP groans* - have I got a site for you - I'll email

Send it along! For awhile I was a member of an INTJ forum. It was like swimming with hungry sharks. I learned a lot, though. I also made what appears to be a life-long friend there.

We're both probably on the same M-B board and don't know it. Email coming after I post this...

He certainly went off in his own direction, though. I admire that.

Just kidding about Bucky, really - he was a great mind.

*training people about self-help - my life work - well, that and pleasing the female population of the US

This aspect has always puzzled me because in my perception these two things are at odds - but that is just my perception

Ah, but what if you help yourself to the females? Works for me.

*personal responsibility - have none

(PR as opposed to diffused responsibility or irresponsibility. A favorite quote of mine..."You are where you are and what you are because of the choices you have made." Don't like one or the other? Make new choices

That sounds suspiciously like:

"Every person, all the events of your life, are there because you have drawn them there.

What you choose to do with them is up to you."

- from "Illusions, The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" - Richard Bach

DMC's - didn't know that about them vs. Vettes. A pity.

[Caraccioli]

*metaphysics - "MUD" - My Useless Degree, as a ladyfriend always told me

There's a degree?!

LOL OOOhhhh yea - from NYU, no less! It was an "experimental" program for several years - it just so happened that when I finished my Psych degree the Metaphysics doctorate course was starting up, so I jumped on for the ride.

If my logical side didn't overrule, I'd probably do likewise. Alas, my logical side is pretty strong.

*psychology - "MOUD" - My Other Useless Degree

I'm working on a useless degree in this field. Experimental Psych interests me. (Clinical bores me.)

They can both be fascinating - if you have the right prof.

Judgment would definitely get in my way there. (What I said about being where you are and what you are because of the choices you have made.) I recognize that some people are physiologically "damaged", but there are rafts of people out there with doctorate degrees out there for them. People with a much stronger caring nature than I could ever pretend to have.

For awhile I was a member of an INTJ forum. It was like swimming with hungry sharks. I learned a lot, though. I also made what appears to be a life-long friend there.

We're both probably on the same M-B board and don't know it. Email coming after I post this...

I doubt it. This was a mail list run by an INTJ. I'll have to check out the link.

*personal responsibility - have none

(PR as opposed to diffused responsibility or irresponsibility. A favorite quote of mine..."You are where you are and what you are because of the choices you have made." Don't like one or the other? Make new choices

That sounds suspiciously like:

"Every person, all the events of your life, are there because you have drawn them there.

What you choose to do with them is up to you."

- from "Illusions, The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" - Richard Bach

Ah, my favorite book. Perhaps I am paraphrasing it without realizing it.

[PyratePhil]

Ah, my favorite book. Perhaps I am paraphrasing it without realizing it.

As Bugs would say -

"Mmmmmmnyeh - could be!"

[Caraccioli]

Ah, saw this one this very morning.

"He that would be superior to external influences must first become superior to his own passions." -Benjamin Disraeli

[PyratePhil]

I tend to mistrust anyone whose last name translates as "He Who Insults the Hebrews"...

[Caraccioli]

Uh, yeah...yeah, I said.

Interestingly, he also said this:

"Man is only great when he acts from passion." -Benjamin Disraeli

How now, brown cow?

Then, to cover his tracks he said,

"Characters do not change. Opinions alter, but characters are only developed." -Benjamin Disraeli

Politicians. (I like the original quote a lot, though. I put it in my quote file.)

"What kept, I say, what kept ya son? I can't hold my breath forever. I'm not a fish! I gotta breathe air! Ya gotta thinka things like that boy! (Gargling sound as he talks underwater for a few scenes) a little consideration for me!"

"Layin' down again! I don't want to be hoggish about this so I'll tell ya what: let's dee-vide the worm. Now we'll draw, I say, we'll draw a line and bi-sect him. Now all on that side of the line is yours and I'll take all on this side."

"Well barbeque my hamhocks! Your half is gone! Now don't gimme no lip son, ya gotta stand by your bargain. I'd do the same thing! Well, hog gravy and chitlens! My half's gone!"

"I-I-I-I know what yer gonna say son. When two halves is gone there's nothin' left. And you're right! It's a little old worm who wasn't there! Two nothins is nothin'! That's math-a-matics, son. You can argue with me, but ya' can't argue with figures! Two half nothins is a whole nothin! And I know what I'm talking about, because..."

"Ahhhhhh shut up!"

"Ok, I'll shut up. I'm not one who has to keep talkin. Some fellahs just have to keep their mouths a flappin'. Not me. I was brought up right! My pa used to tell me shut up and I'd shut up. I wouldn't say nothin! One time I darn near starved! WOULDN'T TELL 'EM I WAS HUNGRY!"

(Foghorn Leghorn and some unknown, unfortunate cat)