Mastering Things

[blackjohn]

This reminds me of a philosophy I like (and I'm not sure who came up with it) that people can go through four stages in their life. The first is the Athlete - where you show your talents off. The second is the Warrior - where you pit your talent against others. The third is the Statesman/Stateswoman - where you use your talents as a benefactor, working on others' behalf . The fourth is the Master - where you teach others what you have learned. Some people get stuck and never go beyond a particular level. Appearance is down there at level one. I'll take a higher order mate over a lower order one any day.

Fascinating... on multiple levels.

What happens, I wonder, when a group of Masters are gathered together in one place? Do some of them get bumped down to Athlete status? If so, has this suddenly become a litmus test for "who is a true Master"?

And is anyone truly a master of anything? Have you mastered yourself?

And where is that coffee? Or Phil? I could use a good philosophy discussion right about now...

Yrs&c,

Blackjohn, who knows he has mastered not a single thing, least of all himself.

[Red Cat Jenny]

A'right..you knew I couldn't resist this one..

Wow.. that piece is one of those things that makes your brain smile..if you can understand that. It's like someone sculpts a piece of life's explanation into a small, simple carving and turns it around to show you and you go "wow".

....Thanks for that - both of you.

I recognize all these levels. The fourth being open ended..I wouldn't consider myself on a mount passing out sage advice ..yet. Well sometimes, but not in so grandiose a manner. Or a toga, though that would be fun.

The first seems to wander through the other three, probably have spent most time in the second. Still there at times.

The third can be achieved by employment of the second. Been there..done that.

Yes...interesting..you're lucky it's early and I cant sit here all day or this might be a very long post lol..

[Caraccioli]

What happens, I wonder, when a group of Masters are gathered together in one place?  Do some of them get bumped down to Athlete status?  If so, has this suddenly become a litmus test for "who is a true Master"?

I think a true master would recognize that he is not a true master and be humbled even by the excelling athlete. (Sounds a bit cockeyed, but you know.)

And is anyone truly a master of anything?  Have you mastered yourself?

What is truth, anyway?

I was half expecting Duchess to call BS on me and she dinna.' So you are filling in for her?

Ok, I was sort of reviewing this whole thing in my head and decided that I move freely through all four, behaving as one type sometimes and another at other times - largely depending on the context (And mood. And skills relative to the situation. And certain other things.) So that makes it somewhat context dependent. In some things, we are one and in other things we are another, depending on our learning. But that waters the whole thing down.

I am reminded of speaking with someone (who is typically quite sensible and rational, so I had some faith in their opinion) who had met the Dalai Lama and could not put across to me in words how calm and serene he made them feel. They didn't have faith in him or believe in what he believed, yet he gave off some sort of aura of calm or something. Perhaps he's a true master?

Is mastery controlling yourself so that your principles are intact? Or is it surrendering yourself while keeping your principles in the front of your mind? The older I get the more I think it's the latter. If so, the true master probably wouldn't care who was recognized as the true master. Besides, if they're debating that, they're behaving like warriors.

Or course, some might say that you become a master when you master "life", but here's the curious discovery I've made (or expanded upon) since we last discussed such things a year or two ago: everyone lives in their own individual world. Your world (dear reader) is not the same as my world. At all. And if you and I were to switch lives (via some silly Disney vehicle), we would be completely lost in each others' world. We would eventually come to understand how to function in the new world in which we found ourselves, but we would function in a completely different way. This, I submit, would be due to our past experiences up to the point where we became functional. So, stepping back, no one's world is like anyone else's world and they never will be.

So, at best, you can be a master in your own world and your own life and this will most likely not transfer well to another person's world/life. It's all about your perceptive world. (This is why there can be no absolute universal truth. Even the ones we have stumbled across (killing is bad for ex.) are rife with shades of grey (Unless you're in a war. Unless you're about to be killed by someone other. Never. Unless it's an accident. Unless you won't get caught. Unless, unless, unless. It's different for everyone based upon (guess) your perception.)

[Duchess]

Actually I was going to call BS. But not necessarily on the whole thing, just a small comment you made. But now I'm a bit too lazy to go find it exactly, but it was something to the idea that a master realizes it is better to teach than to do because teaching helps the students more. And I remember thinking when I read that a master teaches others to do becuase hes sick and tired of doing it for them. (This might be harkening back to personal belief that there is no such thing as altruism...but thats another discussion completely.)

And now that I read what Blackjohn has quoted I'm going to call BS on the very last sentence as well. If you really aspire to this philosphoy it should be accepted that all things possess or can possess all levels.

I'm reminded of a quote from the television show House.

"So, you'd rather be valued for some inate gift of intellegence, rather than some inate gift of beauty?" The point being that both things are to a product of our make up and we must work with what we are born with. So why value one more than the other? Each has its uses.

[blackjohn]

A'right..you knew I couldn't resist this one..

I have a pretty good idea of who will nibble on these kinds of threads... damn, wish we were all together someplace discussing this over beer.

If you really aspire to this philosophy it should be accepted that all things possess or can possess all levels.

I'm going to spin this around in my head while I rearrange the storage room...

[Capt. Sterling]

Isn't everyone all of these at all times in their lives, especially since we are all at different levels regarding the different things we do and face every day?

[Caraccioli]

A'right..you knew I couldn't resist this one..

I have a pretty good idea of who will nibble on these kinds of threads... damn, wish we were all together someplace discussing this over beer.

Yeah... *sigh* Kinda' makes me long for college. (Sorry, Duchess )

[Caraccioli]

Isn't everyone all of these at all times in their lives, especially since we are all at different levels regarding the different things we do and face every day?

Well...yeah and no. I think you have to at least initially move through each level. It also depends on how loosely you define the concepts. Some people never seem to me to get beyond the Athlete stage where they're primarily fascinated with how they look and how everything appears to the neighbors and so forth. Others like to beat everyone else at everything else and seem (to me) to be stuck at the Warrior level. (Some very successful people, actually.)

As our educational system improves and more people move into it or into business for themselves, I think the opportunity to progress up the scale increases. It depends on whether people choose the opportunities that are accessible to them.

(I dunno, maybe you're right and I'm just thinking like an elitist. Talking about this sort of stuff usually interests me more than some quiz on the internet that answers some odd, obscure and ultimately useless question like "What color shade are you on the 256 pallet?")

[blackjohn]

Isn't everyone all of these at all times in their lives, especially since we are all at different levels regarding the different things we do and face every day?

No. Few people master anything. Most people spend their lives in fear, fighting this or that.

[Capt. Sterling]

No.  Few people master anything.  Most people spend their lives in fear, fighting this or that.

Beg to disagree here, and maybe you hang with a different circle of people so you don't see it, but, and in line with the definition given, I know enough "Masters" that are successfully mentoring others... have they truly mastered the skill/gift that they pass on... most likely not since no one is perfect, but now we're discussing jot and tittle stuff, but do they successfully pass on their experiences to help others and help them to grow ...yes very much so. Part of the definition of a leader/mentor is to train up others hoping they will surpass you and put you out of a job... As, once again, in accordance with the definition, I act as a master every time I show up at school...

Yes tis a shame for the people that do spend their lives in fear and doubt, but the more they learn to do it afraid, the less hold the fear and doubt will have over them... but then they need a master to pass on that skill to them..

[Caraccioli]

No.  Few people master anything.  Most people spend their lives in fear, fighting this or that.

Beg to disagree here, and maybe you hang with a different circle of people so you don't see it, but, and in line with the definition given, I know enough "Masters" that are successfully mentoring others... have they truly mastered the skill/gift that they pass on... most likely not since no one is perfect, but now we're discussing jot and tittle stuff, but do they successfully pass on their experiences to help others and help them to grow

Ah, but how many people do you know who don't do that? People to whom it never even occurs to pass on the knowledge and skill that they have (provided they even recognize that they have it).

...yes very much so.  Part of the definition of a leader/mentor is to train up others hoping they will surpass you and put you out of a job...   As, once again, in accordance with the definition, I act as a master every time I show up at school...

Now here's something interesting. I know several teachers who I would say are more at the athlete level than the master level. They enjoy the attention and the opportunity to preen and preach at their charges, but they don't really share anything substantive. Then there's another group who secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) despise their students and do the job only for the paycheck. (Seriously, I know two such teachers.) Being a teacher does not necessarily a master make.

Yes tis a shame for the people that do spend their lives in fear and doubt, but the more they learn to do it afraid, the less hold the fear and doubt will have over them... but then they need a master to pass on that skill to them.

Seek and ye shall find. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Etc. Opportunity is always around and abounding. It just takes a perceptive and ready student to want to learn.

What you say about fear is true. "You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do." –Eleanor Roosevelt

[Capt. Sterling]

Ah, but how many people do you know who don't do that? People to whom it never even occurs to pass on the knowledge and skill that they have (provided they even recognize that they have it).

...yes very much so.  Part of the definition of a leader/mentor is to train up others hoping they will surpass you and put you out of a job...   As, once again, in accordance with the definition, I act as a master every time I show up at school...

Now here's something interesting. I know several teachers who I would say are more at the athlete level than the master level. They enjoy the attention and the opportunity to preen and preach at their charges, but they don't really share anything substantive. Then there's another group who secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) despise their students and do the job only for the paycheck. (Seriously, I know two such teachers.) Being a teacher does not necessarily a master make.

Yes tis a shame for the people that do spend their lives in fear and doubt, but the more they learn to do it afraid, the less hold the fear and doubt will have over them... but then they need a master to pass on that skill to them.

Seek and ye shall find. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Etc. Opportunity is always around and abounding. It just takes a perceptive and ready student to want to learn.

What you say about fear is true. "You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do." –Eleanor Roosevelt

Well that is why I believe everyone is capable of all the definitions at once in their lives...okay perhaps not all as I do agree some people just don't get above themselves whether it be for lack of trying or fear or self doubt, whatever... but I may be an athlete when it comes to sketching... I don't do it enough to have truly mastered it, but I have done it enough to where I am pretty good and thus don't mind showing off my talents... I am also a Warrior when it comes to riding... am I not pitting my talents against another rider when I go out to compete whether it is in the show ring or when I am competing for the job of riding, training and showing another person's horses?

Then I play the part of statesman every Wednesday night when I volunteer to help kids from dysfunctional families or run outreaches to provide for kids and their families..

And last the master, no I haven't mastered sewing, again my opinion is that no one ever will because no one is perfect, but I have been doing it for decades and produce fine garments which would seem to qualifiy me as good enough to be able to easily pass down what I have learned to others so that they can develop their skills in sewing as well...

so see what I am driving at? Yes, I agree with you that there are those out there in this world that will only be an athletes, but I think the majority fits more into displaying a little of all these traits at the same time...

Like the quote you provided... surely we need some fear... or there would be no need for courage, surely courage is just that, doing the thing which you think you cannot do. ...the trick is not to let fear grind you to a halt...

[LongTom]

Well, looks like I need to go attempt to master the installation of a new wax ring.

[lady snow]

personally, i tjink you can be at all these stages at any point in yiur life since life isn't static and i don't know anyone who has just one aspect to the make-up of their being. as far as mastering - you know, the more you know - the more you know you don't know. and the world is always expanding!

just my 2 pence

[blackjohn]

I believe, to be a "true" master, you need to be able to do what it is you do under ANY circumstances... however severe. You know, like someone is shooting at you while you are doing it and you don't even recognize anything but the task at hand. I believe there is a level of difference between people who are highly skilled and people who are true masters.

I agree with lady snow's "the more you know, the more you know you don't know."

[Capt. Sterling]

You know, like someone is shooting at you while you are doing it and you don't even recognize anything but the task at hand.

You mean like a severe case of tunnel vision??

[Red Cat Jenny]

Ok I've mastered what I do here...after a night like tonight at work I feel quite the sage warrior... It's very much like being shot at with the yelling, din and seat of the pants changes going on all around me and I have to keep focused on the aircraft only with all of them calling and moving at once..aaagh! ..OK Ill shut up now...

[Salty]

aye to master oneself be a noble philosophocal challege..... in many ways the only hope of this is to try the attempt and learn to fail misrabley in cases and succeed on others.

fer meself always counted on one thing sure to be a jack of all trades and master of none.....but i can sure as hell try as can everyone else

Cheers to philosophy and thoughts mates

[blackjohn]

You know, like someone is shooting at you while you are doing it and you don't even recognize anything but the task at hand.

You mean like a severe case of tunnel vision??

Maybe I missed the mark with that analogy. How about this instead...

The master is what he is doing. He is also the bullet flying past his head while he is doing it. He is the ground under his feet. He is the center of the planet beneath the ground. He is the sky looking down on him. yadayadayada...

Don't mind me. I really should watch what I read.

[LongTom]

I believe, to be a "true" master, you need to be able to do what it is you do under ANY circumstances... however severe.  You know, like someone is shooting at you while you are doing it and you don't even recognize anything but the task at hand.  I believe there is a level of difference between people who are highly skilled and people who are true masters.

I fear your proposition suffers overstatement. Dodging freeway traffic is not a performance ingredient of even the most advanced forms of calligraphy.

Oops, just read your later reply. Perhaps it would be fair to say the master of calligraphy is the pen, is the ink, is the paper, is the letterform, is the thought which the letters spill onto the page. I think it goes too far, however, to say he is the raindrops in the rainstorm in which he sits and nonetheless produces flawless, unspattered lettering. The master is not diminished by his recognition of inauspicious circumstances.

[Andrew March]

Now the real question becomes, is a true master ever truly happy with his own performance or does he find nothing but flaws to be corrected?

[Cpt Sophia M Eisley]

Heh..that kinda sounds like one who has everything they ever wanted, and yet is still not happy.

I think one part of being a master would be knowing that you still have things to learn at every step in life, no matter what you do. You might be good at some things, but somewhere in the world there's someone else that you'll meet and you'll learn yet another new way to channel your learning, skills, expertise in whatever you feel you're good at.

quote from blackjohn:

"And is anyone truly a master of anything? Have you mastered yourself?"

Probably a little of many things, but never fully. I've always believed as a human being (and a mere speck in the universe) that I can never be too humble in that respect.

In terms of mastering myself...nah. I always consider me to be a work in progress, but there are things I'm good at, or have found comfort with (knowledge, health, emotions, beliefs, etc). :)

[LongTom]

I vaguely remember a story about an interview with the famous cellist Yo Yo Ma, where he told the interviewer that he still practices scales for some surprisingly long period every day. When the interviewer asked why, he said "Because I think I'm getting better!"

[LadyBarbossa]

Very interesting.

I'd have to say... I know WAY too many people who are Athletes and Warriors. And far too many folks at Masters. Cause LOTS of arrogant folks around me attempting to be Masters, but all they are are pains in the ass who get on my nerves.

I hope the Masters are the ones with sympathy, empathy, patience, wisdom, and understanding. Cause few I know have that and I tell ya what... I KNOW IT! Cause those are the people who get under my skin!

BlackJohn... I hear ya on a good chat on Philosophy... or anything that is as a matter of fact.

It's only the 2nd month of 2007 and already I feel as though I have aged 15 years! Without progressing anywhere! Definitely not th' lass I was 5 years ago, that's for sure. I need a lot of that philosophy to help get my head back on straight.

~Lady B

[blackjohn]

Now the real question becomes, is a true master ever truly happy with his own performance or does he find nothing but flaws to be corrected?

A true master... might see happy/sad as judgment calls based on some human bias... some level of expectations...