Hawkyns

It's still sort of a transtional period for the sword. As the musket becomes more and more the weapon of the infantry, and the pocket pistol becomes the defense weapon of the gentleman, the sword goes in two directions. First, it becomes the small sword, mostly as a piece of jewelry and for duelling. This is not a sword you take into a street fight or a boarding action. Second, it becomes the weapon of the cavalry, long heavy blades that are good for cutting down infantry or pressing a charge. Basket hilts were mostly cavalry swords, with the exception of a couple, most notably the highland broadsword of the scottish regiments. Cav swords are long, heavy, may have a straight or curved blade, and take strong wrists to wield. In my experience, they are a bit long for using in a tight quarters fight like a deck action. Most of the pieces available today tend to be 19th century blades, ACW types. There are a few around of earlier periods, like the highland piece, but not many. Infantry hangers are still around for some regiments, but while they have nice short blades, the hilts tend to be simple knuckle bows with a single quillon on the back side. Cast brass hilts are the norm, with slick grips. Much more a holdover and not really intended for use. As far back as the 1640's, army command had noted that the primary use of infantry swords was for 'cutting firewood and menacing the populace', and had advocated removing them from service. The mid level of the population still used hangers for personal protection, especially in the colonies. That, and the hunting hangers of the gentlemen were the primary source of swords of a non-military nature. Therein lies the problem. These were either one of a kind custom pieces made for the gentlemen, or things banged out on the local blacksmith's anvil, rehilts on old blades, cut down cav swords, or even remade scythe blades. By their very nature they were one of a kind pieces. Some ships captains had blades made for defensive fighting, and the cutlass was still in use. There again, though, there was no pattern as such. They would be privately contracted in batches of 20 or so. It would be after the golden age that we would see many variations, although the common sort was the 'figure 8' or 'double d' hilt, two discs at right angles, one as a quillon, the other as a knuckle guard. In the French and Indian War, and even into the Revolution, militia still carried swords, although most Militia Acts permitted either a sword or a short axe. Most militia, other than officers, carried the axe as being more useful. Even military units dropped the sword in favour of the axe for combat operations in the American wilderness. So, to boil all this down to the original question, most pirates should have a custom made sword. Shell guards, basket hilts, ribbon hilts, all sorts of hilts on shorter blades would be good. There are some weapons out there that are acceptable as purchased, but theyare expensive. I would say that the best thing to do is to purchase an inexpensive infantry hanger, get some cardboard and make a hilt pattern, then transfer it to 14guage steel and cut it out with a heavy duty sabre saw. Hammer it to shape, carve a hilt that you find comfortable, and reassemble the piece. Or find a hilt that you like and have it mated to a shorter blade. Or go to a sword cutler and have one made. It will not be cheap or easy. That is the price (literally) of authenticity. Hawkyns

Don't know about their swords, but I've bought a bunch of their other stuff; buckles, musket tools, accoutrements, etc. Clarissa bought one of their dresses, too. All excellent, well made, and great folks to boot. Hawkyns

So, Captain Straw, you are a gentleman of the true Dueling persuasion. As to wether or not your old Master would concur, I would suggest some training in the Classic French Foil method. It is a more controlled discipline due to restricted strike zone perameters. Mastering said method will only improve your skills with the epee. Not too interested in duelling, myself. I've studied epee and some foil, but wasn't impressed. I prefer the combat forms. It's finally getting some respect and is now being referred to as the Western Martial Arts. Whole body target, offhand weapons, grappling, and the dreaded patella montante (rising kneecap to the cods) are more my style. I prefer edge to point, like to fight at about a 2 foot range and like the offensive use of the buckler. Silver, as I said, is more my mug of cider. Duelling is just too stilted. Not enough adrenaline and right of way makes no sense to me. Hawkyns

It came to me yesterday, (while on an adrenaline high) that while we mostly carry cutlasses and various other bits of sharp steel about our persons, there's only a few on this forum that have said they actually fight with said weapons. So I'm curious: what kind of swordspersons have we out there? What styles, what training, and which preferred weapons? Being as it's my question, I'll answer first. My serious sword work started 25 years ago in the SCA. Things have changed a lot, but I still play with them. It's the only place I know I can go and fight for 6 or 7 hours with a large pool of opponents. I prefer hisoric styles, and train and fight mostly out of Silver's manual, published in the late 1500's. I use Del Tin rapiers and hilts from Darkwood Armoury. I've recently discovered the short 32" Del Tin rapier and had it mounted in an Irish hilt, an early form of the Scots basket hilted broadsword. It is just perfectly balanced for the percussive cuts that Silver liked so much. I aquired with same, a matching Reiver dagger with a 12" blade, much more correct than the more normal 20" that most of the SCA uses. Along with that, I have trained with the Sealed Knot and English Civil War Society's re-enactment styles. Done with blunted blades and no armour, it's unscripted combat based from 5 major cuts and their counters, no thrusting allowed. It does allow grappling and takedowns. Makes for great show, while at the same time allowing an actual fight with no pre-conceived outcome.This is what I use for most pirate combat, with a couple of my students that I trust not to kill me. For this we use the Armour Class blunts made in England, or modified Double Canelure blades from AFS. There are some top end Starfire blades that work for this also, though I have never owned one, just fought against them. I've studied a few other styles along the way, some good some bad. I picked up a book that Bill Hobbs wrote a few years ago on sword fightng for the stage, great stuff from THE master. MacAsh has done some great stuff with Highlander, as has de Longis. Mark Ryan is not well known in this country, but is another great sword choreographer from England. For thos of you that saw it, he did 'King Arthur' from this past summer. Watching swordplay from good movies can be educational, especially for re-enactment or display type fighting. So who's next? Competition or display? What's yer pleasure? Hawkyns

Good Day t'ye, Foxe What date in September? I might try and arrange a weekend trip over. Last time I was in Lelystad, the bloody ship was on her way back from Australia. Hawkyns

Yeah. it wasn't the public as such, at a major living history I deal with thousands of people a day. It was their expectations that threw me for a loop. Saying 'Arrgghh' and waving a cutlass around is not my thing. I love to sing, but I prefer the period stuff, not what most pirate groups sing. Just used to a more historically oriented crowd where I talk weapons, history and ships until my throat's dry. What's the status with the fort? Is it daytime only, or can you set up camp and live on site? I didn't have the chance to get there when I was down at FF, but it does look good from the outside. I'm going stir crazy at the moment. It's been about 9 weeks since I went camping and it will probably be another 9 or 10 'till I can get under canvas again. There is the possibility of a snowshoe trek in February. Out for a couple of days in the woods in 18th c kit, just tarps, no tents. (OK, I'm insane. No news here ) Which of those gorgeous blades are you looking at? My apologies to your bank account, but it's my duty to place as many weapons in as many hands as possible. Hawkyns

Personally, I prefer these guys http://www.armourclass.com/Data/Pages/17Ce...ntury_Main2.htm I know I can use them in a combat scenario without fear of breaking or bending, they look right, and the edges and points are bated so that even fighting without armour or masks, we'll only deal with bruises or the odd broken bone. For more formal (i.e Scadian) combat, I swear by this guy http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/swordhilts17.shtml I just got a matched set of Irish hilt sword and reiver dagger from him for the sidesword experiment. Can't wait to try them out. For sharp carry pieces, I find blades and have hilts made or make them myself. No question, I'm picky about my weapons. If I can't expect it to hold up in a fight, either for mock combat or , gods forbid, the real thing, I won't carry it. Most of my events are living history events and I need to maintain a museum standard. Years ago, when I first got involved with Plimoth Plantation, I found I loved their authenticity standard. I have lived by it ever since. Not for everyone, perhaps, but it works for me and it's what I insist on for my gun crews. Hawkyns

The future is now. http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/Histo...Living_History/ Saw my first VN re-enactment group back around '85. About the swords- wall hangers or carry pieces only INMSHO. I wouldn't fight with them, or pull them as examples of weapons for a living history display. Yeah, some of us do care about the authenticity of what we do. ( Glad you edited that, BTW, that could have caused problems. I'm a stitch counter and proud of it. ) A sword should be able to do everything the original did. The fun is getting to the point where you can't tell originals from repros except by the age patina. It's like everything else, you gets what ya pays for. A $20 dollar machine stamped sword will always look like a $20 dollar machine stamped sword. If that's OK for you, fine. Hawkyns

How distressed and aged do you want it to look? Like it's an old and trusty friend that still gives good service, or something you just found abandoned in a cave? The salt water would do for the latter, but I wouldn't trust the leather to hold up afterwards. I'd get a good harness darkening oil and rub it in, using a hair dryer between applications to make sure it soaks well in. I'd take an almost dry swab of some dark leather dye ands put on a few stains, maybe even rub some blood into it, let it dry then try to clean it. At the point it curves over the shoulder, dampen the leather and rub the inside edge to flare it and smooth it some. If the buckle is brass, soak it in vinegar for a while 'till you get some tarnish. For steel, a fine spray of salt water will do, then clean them both to stop the reaction and remove surface rust or tarnish. One of the rules of the 'pirate codes' that are out there says to keep your weapons in good shape. letting the leather deteriorate doesn't square with that idea, not to me anyway. Well used and well maintained would seem to be the watchwords. if you can't let it age naturally with age, sweat and sun, then try my method. Hawkyns

I normally don't respond on this thread, since single I am not. However, this topic is one where I have experience and perhaps something to contribute to the discussion. Cheating is wrong, it hurts people. There is, however, the option of polyamoury. This is the concept that one person may love many people and that love is not a limited commodity, to be doled out to one person only. It is also the concept that to require one person to meet all your psychological needs for the rest of your lives is a pipedream and unfair to you both. In honesty, fairness and trust, relationships can be multidirectional and fulfilling to all. Honesty is the big thing here. It is a type of relationship that must be entered into freely by all parties and not forced on anyone. Discussion and communication is absolutely neccesary before entering into any such relationship. It does work and works well, under the correct circumstances. Gwen and I have been married for nearly 30 years and we're still having fun and still in love. That is something that cannot be said for most of our friends who have tried and failed at the conventional, traditional marriage. Hawkyns

Not sure if we're talking about the same ship, but: Assurance, 300 tons, purchased by George Clifford, Earl of Cumberland and renamed Red Dragon in 1586. Equipped as a privateer with demi-cannon, culverins and demiculverins as wll as smaller pieces. She was commanded by Robert Widdrington and had a crew of 230. She sailed under letters of marque from the King of Portugal, an ally of Elizabeth against the Spanish. In 1588 she entered Royal Service as the Sampson under the Earl of Sussex. She fought the Armada Campaign and was one of the last private ships released from service. A second ship, and perhaps the one you are seeking was launched as the Malice Scourge in the spring of 1595. She was also owned by Clifford. 600 tons, 100ft at the keel, 35ft in the beam, 17ft deep in the hold. 2 gun decks, 34 major pieces- 2 demi cannon, 16 culverin, 12 demiculverin, and 8 sakers. Crew of 400 costing 600 pounds per month to maintain. In 1600 she was sold to the new East India Company, of which George Clifford was a primary stockholder. She was renamed the Red Dragon and served as the flagship for 2 decades. There is much more on the early history for the ship, especially her Puerto Rican privateering voyage in a book called 'The Privateering Earl' This is a biography of George Clifford. Written by Richard Spence, Alan Sutton Publishing, 1995 isbn 0-7509-0892-0 My primary persona, by coincidence, is Master Gunner on the first Red Dragon, in service to the Earl. Hawkyns

I'll agree with Gary here. Stainless is way too hard to sharpen, and if you are working on grinding or draw filing from stock, be prepared for a LOT of work. What's the point? A properly cared for blade won't rust and preventing rust is the only reason I can think of to choose stainless. Good tool steel is best for blades. My best knives are forged and ground from old files. For longer blades, check out old truck springs. Hawkyns

OK, gentlemen, let's play nice. Mino, I think we all appreciate the info, but could you cut the posts a bit? If they are direct pulls from elasewhere, I'd prefer that you post a synopsis, a link, and the accreditation. For people with dial up, these can be a bear to download. If they are your own writing, space them out a bit, would you, please? Everyone else, LIGHTEN UP! This is a thread for learning and the more information we get, the better. I've removed a thread because it was getting out of hand (Sorry, Mino). If you care to repost the info in a slightly different format, that would be fine. AS YOU WERE! Hawkyns

Francooooooiiiissssssss Cooooommmmmeeeee ttoooooo Booosssstttooonnnn............... Hawkyns

For the leather, I prefer liquid mink oil or good harness oil. I recently acquired some bear oil and I'm evaluating that now. For the metal, I've used Break Free for years on both swords and firearms. Got turned on to the stuff by a Spec Forces firearms instructor years ago and never found anything better. To remove specs of surface rust (all too common when living outside or in salt air) I use 3M green polishing cloth. Hawkyns

Looking over the catalogues (Wallace Collection, Tower Armouries, York Castle Museum among others) the average weight of the blades seems to be in the 31b 12oz range. However, many of those hilts are a bit on the small size for the average 21st C hand. I've held a bunch of originals and that bears me out. I can barely get my hand into most of these and I take a medium to large men's glove, Many repros have been sized up even up to 25% above original. That would bring weight up to around 4lb 8oz if we assume an even weight to size ratio. So yeah, they are heavy. My Irish hilt (16th c version of the 18th c Scots broadsword) weighs just under 5 pounds but that has a heavier than normal blade since it is not sharpened and has a flat profile involving extra steel. After about 20 minutes fighting with it my arm is pretty much done. I frequently have to wear a leather wrist brace to stop the wrist straining. Good luck with it! It's a pretty piece. Hawkyns

Small marshmallow sugar critters that explode in microwaves? Hawkyns

OK, my list: Henry V- the Branagh version- Shakespeare and Branagh- can't go wrong. Druids- a little known Chris Lambert film biography of Vercingetorix Treasure Island- the Turner version with Charlton Heston Return of the Musketeers- Same crew as the 3 and 4 but made 20 years later The Man in the Iron Mask- watch it for Depardeau and try to ignore deCaprio Restoration- great costume drama The Wicked Lady- restoration highwaywoman- Deanna Troy's nude scene There's a start, more later. Hawkyns

No, Sir. ECWS We were 3rd company, here in the US. Strictly on a regimental level, JT and the KA weren't real amenable to crossing the pond. So we played mostly over here, and occasionally came to the UK to join with the rest of the regiment. Things are slow at the moment. English Civil War is in a downturn since the end of the 350th. I'm doing more Elizabethan living history than ECW at the moment. Hawkyns

I don't doubt it. Customs in different countries are widely divergent. We have a tendency to assume an English bias, but the Caribbean in the period was a mix of many cultures and nationalities. And when we expand that to the Indian Ocean, it would be nigh impossible to say that only one tradition or idea was held paramount. Hawkyns

Right you are, Cap'n Grey! There's room on the sea for all ideas and all fantasies. Mine is being able to live in the period, fleas, stink, cold, hard work and all. I've done it for short periods, I'd like to try it extended- a few months and see how I survive. I like the idea of a world where my law and my honour are rooted in my right arm and my sword, where arbitrary laws exist only in sight of the armsmen and the back country or the open sea is free of such garbage. Where my survival is based on what I win, make, or earn for myself and not be restricted by employee manuals, zoning codes, political correctness, or other such modern trash. I do what I can to make my forays into the past as real as possible and I've been fortunate to find some historic sites than have let me do so, as much as possible within the law. As far as the rape/forced sex fantasies. May I remind you all that there are quite a large number of people in the BDSM community that do agree with and participate in such things on many levels. They are not for everyone, and should never be forced on someone, but there are people of both sexes who enjoy them. It's not for us to criticize. As I said, it's a large sea. Hawkyns

I think your date is slightly off, Foxe, but not by much. One of the factors seems to be the Interregnum of that bastard Cromwell. Royalist officers were still wearing earrings until the end of the Civil War. After the final defeat and the plunging of England into the Dark Ages of puritanism, the wearing of jewelry adornment by men (and women) goes out of style very quickly. One thing here, though. Much of this seems to be based on England. Anybody know what the French and Dutch were doing at this time? Hawkyns Proud Royalist Officer of The King's Army, Sir Thomas Blackwell's Reg't

Just a pet peeve, here. Don't know about the other guys on the board, but I find the sight of a woman in female kit carrying a full sword looks more than a bit dumb, and completely out of place. Daggers in the belt, even pistols are OK, but carrying a baldric across lowcut cleavage just doesn't look right, not to mention I'd be willing to bet the leather would chafe quite a bit. Not a politically correct statement, I know, but that would apply to this whole thread. (not that i object, understand, i think we should all do our best to be as politically incorrect as possible) Hawkyns

This is one of those items that shows up every so often as an argument on the 18th C lists. I've seen 'documentation' on both sides. Slops could be anywhere from knee length down to nearly the ankle. The woodcuts I've seen of Bonney and Read seem to show mid calf, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. There are some broadsheets of 16th century Dutch sailors with ankle length slops. I guess that it can be said that they did exist, but I can not find any evidence that they were common in the early 18th c. Certainly the written evidence and woodcuts and engravings of the period do not indicate any great numbers. More like they were written down because they were the exception and therefore noteworthy. As i said, I've seen this booted about by far better costume experts than I, with no conclusions reached. For me, based on what I know of my persona's time and place, I can't accept them in a 1720's scenario. Your mileage may vary. Hawkyns

Blunt, says you. You asked, says I. Full breasts, Round butt, Long hair, Pretty face, Tight clothes That's the immediate impression. I don't like skinny women, that would describe anyone who meets the medical profession's definition of 'normal'. I like some meat on the bones, from a bit chunky up to Junoesque. Piercings and tats add spice to the package. Oh- and no matter what the rest, a twisted, sick sense of humour is an absolute requirement. Hawkyns