A Costuming Question

[caoil]

Hi all;

My girlfriend and I are getting dressed up for the POTC2 opening night, in proper pirate gear. Now, everything I've read suggests that when women became pirates, they generally wore men's garb so they wouldn't be discovered right away. They didn't necessarily run about in skirts and bodices. Am I wrong in this? I mean, there were a handful who were already known as pirates and so probably wore whatever (Grainne comes to mind), but it seems to me that those who were running away for their piratical adventures, and not as the wife of someone on board a ship, were most often in breeches, weskit, etc.

Am I way off base here? I'm trying to be accurate from a historical sense...

[kass]

Nope. You're right on the money, Caoil. From what we know of female pirates, they dressed as men and sought not to be known as women at all. No bodices. No broomstick skirts. Those are Ren Faire inventions.

And actually there's no real proof that Grainne O'Malley was a pirate in the sense we think. She owned a ship that raided Spanish and English ships off the West coast of Ireland. In essence, she was the money behind the deeds, but there's nothing to say she was ever on board her own ships (unless you read Morgan Llywellyn's novel -- which is fiction based on what's known about her). If she had been a pirate in the sense we think, Elizabeth wouldn't have let her go twice. She would have hanged her. And there's no proof she wore men's clothing. Again, just in a work of fiction by ML.

Anne Bonny and other real female pirates pretended to be men. So counsel your girlfriend to wear a frock coat (or sailor's jacket), waistcoat and breeches and pull her hair back in a manly ponytail under a cocked hat.

Have fun at the movie!

[caoil]

Nope. You're right on the money, Caoil. From what we know of female pirates, they dressed as men and sought not to be known as women at all. No bodices. No broomstick skirts. Those are Ren Faire inventions.

And actually there's no real proof that Grainne O'Malley was a pirate in the sense we think. She owned a ship that raided Spanish and English ships off the West coast of Ireland. In essence, she was the money behind the deeds, but there's nothing to say she was ever on board her own ships (unless you read Morgan Llywellyn's novel -- which is fiction based on what's known about her). If she had been a pirate in the sense we think, Elizabeth wouldn't have let her go twice. She would have hanged her. And there's no proof she wore men's clothing. Again, just in a work of fiction by ML.

Anne Bonny and other real female pirates pretended to be men. So counsel your girlfriend to wear a frock coat (or sailor's jacket), waistcoat and breeches and pull her hair back in a manly ponytail under a cocked hat.

Have fun at the movie!

I did read ML's book long ago, and while it may not have been accurate in some respects I certainly did develop an interest in Grainne from it! :-)

I've read two books since on female pirates, one by Barbara Sjoholm ('The Pirate Queen') and another by Joan Druett ('She Captains'), and that's where I picked up the detail above. Whew! I'm glad I'm on the right track - at the very least we'll be the only accurate female pirates in our group of moviegoers! (I may get to use this costume again for a local theatre production later, so accuracy = better chance of getting the job) So it would appear from the snippets of film showing Elizabeth's new costume in POTC2 that they actually got it pretty well right! ;-)

I'm using the Eagle's View pattern for the breeches, but would you recommend a particular weskit or frock coat? I was going to use the Simplicity one, but I don't like that the coat isn't lined (nor is the back of the vest, for that matter).

I can't wait! We're also getting hat blanks, cutlasses, and baldrics (not sure if we'll make, or buy).

[Red Maria]

Nope.  You're right on the money, Caoil.  From what we know of female pirates, they dressed as men and sought not to be known as women at all.  No bodices.  No broomstick skirts.  Those are Ren Faire inventions

In the transcipts of the trial of Anne Bonney & Mary Reed it states that both women wore women's clothes except when an action as to take place then they switched to men's clothing. Yes women pirates did sometimes wear men's clothing ti disguies themselves but did wear women's clothing as well.

And actually there's no real proof that Grainne O'Malley was a pirate in the sense we think.  She owned a ship that raided Spanish and English ships off the West coast of Ireland.  In essence, she was the money behind the deeds, but there's nothing to say she was ever on board her own ships (unless you read Morgan Llywellyn's novel -- which is fiction based on what's known about her).  If she had been a pirate in the sense we think, Elizabeth wouldn't have let her go twice.  She would have Ahem! Ahem hanged her.  And there's no proof she wore men's clothing.  Again, just in a work of fiction by ML.

Well according to a biography I have Granuaile: Ireland's Pirate Queen C. 1530-1603 by Anne Chambers on Grainne she certainly did sail on her ships and she was considered a pirate by the English. State documents say it so. Elizabeth let her go couse Granuaile agreed to not attack English ships only Spanish ones, for a pnesion and her son's realease. Sorry Kass ML aside She was a pirate and a damn good sailor by all accounts of the time. :) I check if Chambers says whether or not Granuaile wore men's clothing or not.

Anne Bonny and other real female pirates pretended to be men.  So counsel your girlfriend to wear a frock coat (or sailor's jacket), waistcoat and breeches and pull her hair back in a manly ponytail under a cocked hat. 

Ahem! Speaking of sailor's jacket Kass.

[kass]

Caoil, click the link in my signature and it will take you to my website. I sell patterns for Golden Age of Piracy clothing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah Maria... I hear you. I'm working on them as fast as I can!

Of course you're right about women dressing as women when they were in port. I didn't realize that distinction needed to be made. But it is pretty obvious that they sought to be taken for men when they were on-board or in the company of pirates. Some accounts even say that their own crews didn't know they were women. And after all, what a perfect disguise if the authorities are looking for two men of slight build and all they find are two women.

I've read Chambers and the sources upon which she bases her research never say whether Grainne ever was present when any of this pirating activity was going on. Despite the lore that surrounds her, we know surprisingly little about Grainne O'Malley. What we know about her comes purely from English records of her two meetings with Queen Elizabeth (and subsequent imprisonment). Yes, she was a "pirate" but not in the sense that she was out there on her ship raiding the shipping lanes. None of the records Chambers sites say anything about her being present at the time of the raids. It just says that she profitted by those raids because Irish law didn't provide for her in her widowhood, so she asked Elizabeth I to grant her the right to raid Spanish ships to support herself.

Chambers says nothing about Grainne wearing men's clothing. Her only description is when she met with Elizabeth the first time and she is described as wearing a gown. It's hard to say we "know" anything about Grainne because so very little is known about her. So I'd rather err on the side of caution. And trust me, if she had actively participated in raids on English ships, why do you think Elizabeth wouldn't have hanged her? She didn't hang her because she owned the ship but wasn't complicit in the crimes. And because she could use her ship to harass the Spanish off the West coast.

[Red Maria]

Chambers cites a lot of state papers and personal paper (e.g. Sir Henry Sidney) in her endnotes. I tend go with the verasity of state documents. But I'll leave this to another thread in Capt Twill sometime. :)

As to Bonney and Read testimony from two captive Frenchmen states:

"... That when they saw any vessel, gave chase or attacked they wore men's cloathes; and at other times, they wore women's clothes"

It makes sense. I mean have you every tried fight with a pistol and cutlass in a skirt?! Trousers make sense in battle even if everyone knows your a woman!

[kass]

Well there we have it! Thank you, Maria. I think I was remembering another quote from a trial that said even their shipmates didn't know they were women because they always disguised themselves. You've shown me that it wasn't Bonny and Read though.

In any case, women of the period didn't wear the Ren Faire bodices we see around the pirate community. But that's a whole 'nuther thread!

[Red Maria]

Yeah, yeah, yeah Maria... I hear you. I'm working on them as fast as I can!

I know your are hon. I'm just excited about getting the jacket and trousers made. :) I know quality counts with you and I admire that.

[Red Maria]

Well there we have it! Thank you, Maria. I think I was remembering another quote from a trial that said even their shipmates didn't know they were women because they always disguised themselves. You've shown me that it wasn't Bonny and Read though.

In any case, women of the period didn't wear the Ren Faire bodices we see around the pirate community. But that's a whole 'nuther thread!

What I recall at first they were in disguise but eventually outed. By then the crew had accepted them as one of their own and they dressed as they damn well pleased. :)

Yes women of the period did not wear Elizabethan period bodices. Were short gowns in by the? I can't remember.

[kass]

Not quite yet for short gowns. They are more specifically Rev War period. Earlier we have common women wearing mantuas and variations on that simple gown. Lookie here: Common Women of the Baroque era Very different silhouette from the later part of the century.

If I ever get the new website done, there will be a more expanded version of this there with better illustrations.

Interestingly enough, there are some pictures of poor women wearing what are obviously men's coats. But they are terribly torn and missing buttons and all that. Not nearly what we see women wearing about...

Good news -- I'm not doing preorders for the Sailor's Jacket and Breeches. So when I post it here, it'll be in print and ready to ship that day. How's that?

[Red Maria]

That's great! I really should look at my copy of Laroon.

[kass]

Do! All the illos on that page are from Laroon's 1687 edition. It's brilliant! Everytime I look at it, I find some new detail. There's one woman wearing a man's Justacorps that is too small on her. It closes over her bust but is open below. It hang open like it doesn't fit. It's very interesting... I'd love to see someone portraying a woman like that!

[Coastie04]

Do! All the illos on that page are from Laroon's 1687 edition. It's brilliant! Everytime I look at it, I find some new detail. There's one woman wearing a man's Justacorps that is too small on her. It closes over her bust but is open below. It hang open like it doesn't fit. It's very interesting... I'd love to see someone portraying a woman like that!

That kind of sounds like a Pamela Anderson trick. It actually sounds like it could look rather dashing, if done properly (or improperly, as it is a man's coat worn too small). I'd love to see that as well!

As for Bonney and Reade, I heard somewhere (I'm bad at remembering sources off the top of my head), like Kass, that their crew was oblivious, at least until they were accepted as crew. It would make sense, especially with the sailors' superstition that women were bad luck onboard ships. However, in a crowded vessel, it would be hard to keep that kind of seceret indefinitely, so it wouldn't be surprising if the crew began to suspect something. Especially with Anne and Jack's eventual relationship. Probably better for a captain to admit that one of the crew was a woman than that he likes cabin boys. Obviously, once the cat was out of the bag with the crew, switching to women's clothes ashore could also be a good disguise. As for switching into men's clothes during time of battle, I think that could be a little far fetched. Even just helping to sail the vessel would be hard in women's clothes. Unless they were planning on using their dresses as proof that they did not commit piracy, but were just captives on the vessel. But, that's pure speculation.

Coastie

[Patrick Hand]

How does your girlfriend feel about this?

Will she be comfortable dressing as a man?

Funny part, durring the Golden Age of Pyracy, there were Women around.... they just wern't pyrates (OK so there are two that were).....

Maybe she might want to portray a woman from the time period, that got along with Pyrates.... (Kass can be a better source with this one...) Not Renn Wench.... but I have yet to see any woman that does a period female that is not a pyrate...... and somehow, I think there were women back then.......

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I too would love to see the source and more of the french captive's quote. I'll check Johnson... give me a minute......

I just did a quick survey of Johnson, and there is no mention there of French Captives testimony.

But he does give us the impression that the lived, dressed, and acted as men aboard ship. As a matter of fact, he tells us that Rackam was jealous of their relationship and he would "cut the throat" of his lovers new interest.

Anne Boney also falls in love with another pirate and lets him in on "the secret" which makes us believe that the only ones who knew the true identity were Bonney, Read, Rackam and Boney's lover.

The only witness testimony that I could find (quickly) is Dorothy Thomas, and she testified that they dressed and acted like men.

So it seems wierd that sources claim that their identities were hidden to only them and their lovers, and then some French witness' claim that they dressed as women when not in battle.

Please, share the source!

Greg

[Capt. Sterling]

but I have yet to see any woman that does a period female that is not a pyrate...... and somehow, I think there were women back then.......

Wow you need to check out Kass's character. Not only does she NOT dress like a pirate, she has two great serving girls and has helped our crew with the development of one Actress and the Captain's Daughter. BTW the Daughter is NOT dressed like a pirate either but as a young girl who is left behind in the care of Kass's character, who is trying to raise the girl properly. The Captain only sees her when he is in port, he does NOT drag her around on ship allowing her to dress like a man and swing from the yardarm.....

There are soooooo many other types of female characters from the period.

Hector

[kass]

Maybe she might want to portray a woman from the time period, that got along with Pyrates.... (Kass can be a better source with this one...)

Yeah, send her to me! I can outfit her as a proper woman.

[Capt. Sterling]

Okay the below link does not work unless you join the group. Sorry didn't realize that so I will post them here...since the clitches have been worked out....

The Actress

The Captain's Daughter

And ubnoxious middys

If you can click on the link http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Reconstru...tos/browse/ad2f

It should take you to some photos (that still won't post directly on this site ) that show the beginnings of the Actress in Reconstructing History's new Bodice Gown pattern and the Captain's Daughter in Reconstructing History's Lady's Riding and Hunting Outfit. The young midshipmen are still in the works, one is wearing Rev. War cast offs, WHICH are NOT period correct for GAoP and the other is in Kass's Hunting outfit coat (which works great for the younger boys as the man's pattern takes a bit more adjustment). Still in the process of replacing the pewter buttons with posh Passiemetierie(sp) buttons like on the Captain's brown coat. Both sets of patterns went together like a piece of cake! I cannot begin to praise them highly enough! The bodice gown was completed in less than 48 hours! (even with all that boning!!) Each coat, including period correct prick stitching took less than 7 hours each.... so even if you are new to sewing in the time frame, it should be a project you can tackle. Kass is also more than willing to help via email on her patterns lists. You can find all her patterns at Reconstructing History,along with links to historical information and the chat list... btw the Woman is brilliant!

Hector

[Capt. Sterling]

  The young midshipmen are still in the works, one is wearing Rev. War cast offs, WHICH are NOT period correct for GAoP and the other is in Kass's Hunting outfit coat (which works great for the younger boys as the man's pattern takes a bit more adjustment).

Let me clarify this statement... there is NOTHING wrong with the men's pattern. What I mean is that it is much easier to adjust or scale down the lady's Hunting pattern to fit small children, then it is to adjust or scale down the man's coat pattern to fit small children. Since the Hunting Coat is the same style as the man's coat, it works perfectly for boys who just don't fit in the man's pattern sizes yet....

For those crews who have middys...

Hector

[Rumba Rue]

I went to look at the pics, but it says you have to be a member of the group. I am assuming that means it's an invite only situation, as I saw no "Join this group" flag.

[kass]

Pop on over to this thread, Rue. Hector posted them in Twill:

Here

[Rumba Rue]

I have everything done for my riding habit outfit, now to get pictures! If it's not too hot this weekend I'll have Boats do it, preferably outside as it's nicer backgrounds than my apartment.

[Red Maria]

I too would love to see the source and more of the french captive's quote. I'll check Johnson... give me a minute......

I just did a quick survey of Johnson, and there is no mention there of French Captives testimony.

I took the quote from Bold in Her Breeches edited Jo Stanley pg. 180. The source sited is the PRO Co 137/14/XC/18757. It's thier trial transcripts. Johnson (whoever he was) would not necessarily had access to the trail transcipts. The Frenchmen were volunteers. Thier names were John Bessneck and Peter Cornelian. The women

"were very active on board and willing to do anything; that Ann Bonney...handed gun-powder to the men, that when they saw any vessel, gave chase or attacked, they wore men's clothes and at other times, they wore women's clothes; that they did not seem to be kept or detained by force, but of their own fre-will and consent."

Another witness Dorothy Thomas testified that:

"wore men's jacket's and long trouser, and handkerchiefs tied about their heads: and that each of them had a machet and psitol in thier hand and cusred and swore at the men to murder; and that they should kill her [Thomas]to prevent her from coming against them; and [Thomas] further siad, That the reason of her knowing and beleiving them to be women then was by the largness of thier breasts.

There is a copy of the state papers somewhere in the libray. I just can't remember right now if it's in book or microfilm form.

[Kathyrn Ramsey]

It makes sense. I mean have you every tried fight with a pistol and cutlass in a skirt?! Trousers make sense in battle even if everyone knows your a woman! 

Actually Maria, I fight rapier and short sword in skirts and handle the guns as well in proper female attire...

I will not fight in anything other, unless the mud is to my calves and then well i do not want to be weighed down and that only happened once. I have never had a problem fighting in skirts and bodices.

Kathryn Ramsey

Cadet to Roderic Hawkyns