Size of a naval ensign?

[Master Sully]

After many searches, I still have not been able to find the size dimensions of a stern flown naval ensign. Preferably 17th- 18th centuries. If anyone could help, it would be much appreciated.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I have this information somewhere but its tucked away and I will have to find it....

but

I think that for ships of the line, it can be a relation to either mast size or keel length, but I could be wrong, so let me snoop around.

That being said, here is some info from a flag site:

Dimensions of British Ensigns

It is thought that British naval flags attained a ratio of 1:2 through carelessness. 17th century English naval ensigns were made from material that was about eleven inches wide. It was stipulated that the length of a flag should be eighteen times the number of widths of material used to make the flag. The ratio at that time was therefore 11:18. Over the years, for reasons that I have never seen explained, the width of the material used to make flags was reduced, but no corresponding adjustment was made to the stipulated length. The length of the flags thus increased relative to their width. By about 1840 the width of the material had been reduced to nine inches, giving a ratio of 8 : 18. Standard sizes were now introduced, in which the length was twice the width.

David Prothero, 6 February 2006

Not quite if you don't mind me saying so David. According to Pepys writing in the last half of the 17th Century "It is in general to be noted that the bewper (bunting) from which colours are made being 22 inches (approx 56 cm) in breadth and half of that breadth or 11 inches in ordinary discourse by the name of a breadth being wrought into colours, every such breadth is allowed half a yard (18 inches or approx 46cm) for its fly".

If the flag sizes given for 1742 may be cited as evidence the 'breadth' had decreased to 10 inches by that date, and a surviving 20 foot x 40 foot White Ensign of 1787 (not counting an Establishment of 1822) seems to indicate that the breadth had reduced yet again to its modern width of 9 inches by the later 18th Century?

Christopher Southworth, 6 February 2006

More interesting stuff here Ships Flags for Model Builders

The bottom line, is that these things are huge. If you are extending this to pirate flag dimensions, those should be huge too.

Remember, the purpose of a pirate flag was not to have a cool 3 x 5 flag to hang in your bedroom. The purpose is to scare the living daylights out of another ship so that they surrendered without a fight.

So to do this you had to be able to readily communicate this fact, and thus, a big flag.

GoF

[Fox]

As with so many things, it depends on the size of ship.

The following sizes were recommended by the Navy Board, September 3, 1694, and approved by the Admiralty two days later:

Ship..............................Breadths (11") in the hoist.....Yards in the fly.

Sovereign, Victory ...............................30........................16

Ossory, St. Michael................................28.......................15

Russel, Grafton......................................26.......................14

Resolution etc........................................24.......................13

Dunkirk etc............................................22.......................12

Advice etc..............................................20.......................11

Charles Galley etc.................................18........................10

Yachts....................................................16....................

.....9

Ketches..................................................14.....................

....8

Advice boats..........................................12.........................7

So in terms of naval ensigns of the period it might be anything from 11 x 21 feet for the smallest vessels up to 27'6" x 48' for first rates. It should be noted that these measurements were introduced as a result of captains and admirals complaining that their ensigns were too small for their ships, so prior to that date it can be assumed that ensigns were generally smaller.

FWIW, this scale of sizes was worked out by simply using the length of ensign post for the hoist, and the distance between the taff rail and waterline for the fly.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Oh... so they weren't big, they were freakin huge!

Also, pay attention to the chart in the sense that it describes the "height" of the flag (Hoist) in Breadths of 11'' (while the length or "Fly" is stated in yards). The bunting came in/was woven in widths of just 11", so multiply the number of widths you need (in Foxe's chart) by 11" to get the number of inches it is tall.

So the flag for a Yacht size boat (which might have 4-6 guns) would have be 14.6 FEET tall (4.8 yards) by 27 FEET (9 yards) long.

So to make a historically accurate Naval ensign, you would need to find wool bunting, cut it down to **EDIT** 22" wide and 27 feet long, and sew 8 of them together by hand.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a pirate. You have a ship with probably a stock of different flags (signaling, ensigns, etc) and you need a pirate flag. Well you take what you got, and make a pirate flag. Which may help to explain the various colors of pirate flags in the late 17th and Early 18th centuries.

Greg aka GoF

[Master Sully]

Thanks alot GoF and Foxe for the info!

[Fox]

Small correction: a "breadth" as a unit of measurement for flags was 11", but the fabric itself (in 1694 at least) was in reality 22" wide. So for the flag Greg illustrated one would actually have to cut the bunting to 22" wide, and sew 8 of them together by hand. Should be doable in an afternoon

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Thanks Foxe, I will edit my earlier post to avoid confusing anyone stumbling on to the post.

By the way, do you have a source for more info on bunting (for width/breadth)?

Greg aka GoF

[Matty Bottles]

I thought it wasn't polite to ask the size of a man's ensign!

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Did I mention that Ensigns were really big?

While this is a late 18th example (and one to an Admirals ship ta boot), the point is that GAoP ones are really big too.

GoF

[pyrateleather]

Wow! I took me a second to notice that those were people around the ensign above!!! HUGE! Guess I have Ensign Envy!