Papist Pyrates

[Jib]

As a spin off to the thread about behavior in a period tavern (where we touched briefly upon this topic) I thought we could continue the discourse on Catholic Pirates.

I seem to recall that many English Catholics flocked to the Kings banner during the English Civil War (perhaps in hope of tolerance upon victory) and had to seek new residence upon the success of Cromwell and his Roundheads. I also believe that Cromwell in his conquest of Ireland for plantations transported many Irish to the Caribbean (Hell or Connaught!).

The Portuguese, long time allies of the English were Catholic. After the Restoration the Queen was herself was Portuguese and passionately Catholic. Much of South America was in control of Portugal.

I also recall Mission posting something about a group of French Freebooters having a mass said before a journey and even killing one of there own who was making non-pious comments.

And Hurricane mentioned Catholics in Port Royal.

Of course the Spanish were Catholic too!

[Mission]

What an odd topic.

The book about the French buccaneers that you're referring to is The Memoirs of Père Labat, 1693-1705. It contains that account I quoted as well as other really fascinating tales about the French buccaneers. It's quite diverting; I highly, highly recommend it.

If you want to research Scottish pirates, you might try Eric J. Graham's Seawolves: Pirates & the Scots. I don't recall anything specifically about religion (although neither was I looking for such when I read it), but I found it to be of at least passing interest.

[Red_Dawn]

This could be interesting, both because I have Catholic pirate characters and because I'm Catholic myself.

I remember getting excited when I learned about Blessed George Gervase, who one source said traveled with Francis Drake, and another source said was kidnapped by pirates. So I asked about him here. To my mild disappointment, he was merely a kidnapping victim and not a reformed pirate.

[Fox]

Interesting sounding fellow. Let's see...

Born 1571. Captured by pirates aged 12 (ie 1583). Taken to the West Indies where he remained for 12 years (ie until 1595). Entered the seminary in 1595.

Yup, doesn't leave him any time to have sailed with Drake, unless he went on Drake's circumnavigation aged 6, which seems unlikely, and his name doesn't crop up to my offhand knowledge in any document relating to that voyage.

Incidentally, the bit about being captured by pirates and taken to the West Indies for 12 years also raises a big list of questions!

[Red_Dawn]

Born 1571. Captured by pirates aged 12 (ie 1583). Taken to the West Indies where he remained for 12 years (ie until 1595). Entered the seminary in 1595.

Yup, doesn't leave him any time to have sailed with Drake, unless he went on Drake's circumnavigation aged 6, which seems unlikely, and his name doesn't crop up to my offhand knowledge in any document relating to that voyage.

Guess that's another case of a saint's story getting embellished as time goes on.

Incidentally, the bit about being captured by pirates and taken to the West Indies for 12 years also raises a big list of questions!

I know, but everything I've seen about him focuses on his religious life, for obvious reasons. They don't say whether he did some piracy in that time or if the pirates just dropped him off in a port and said, "You're on your own, kid."

[Fox]

Guess that's another case of a saint's story getting embellished as time goes on.

Surely not?!

I know, but everything I've seen about him focuses on his religious life, for obvious reasons. They don't say whether he did some piracy in that time or if the pirates just dropped him off in a port and said, "You're on your own, kid."

I was wondering more who the pirates would have been, where he might have been captured, where in the West Indies he might have been taken, and why.

[Jib]

Didn't Drake absolutely hate Catholics?

[MarkG]

Didn't Drake absolutely hate Catholics?

He was more anti-Spanish than anti-Catholic. He accompanied Hawkins on his 1561 voyage selling slaves and trade goods to the Spanish colonies. They ran into a large Spanish fleet and asked for a truce. Instead the Spanish attacked Hawkins' fleet and only two ships returned. After that Drake decided that the Spanish could not be trusted and swore vengeance on them.

Of course, the English were anti-Catholic in general at that point.

Mark

[Fox]

I think Drake probably had some personal animosity towards Catholics as well. As a child his family had been forced to leave their large farmhouse and go and live in poverty by the Maryan anti-Protestant persecutions. As well as fighting the Spanish he also spent a bit of time fighting the Irish.

[capn'rob]

I'm currently reading "Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean". Their vengence upon the Catholic, mostly Spanish was regarding the Inquisition. Having come to the New World with the Portuguese and the Spanish upon the beginning of the Inquisition was the Expulsion. A large number of Jews spread around the New World. From these people rose Samuel Palache, the Rabbi Pirate. Moses Cohen Henriquez, responsible for seizing the largest dollar value prize from the Spanish. His brother, Abraham was in the same family business. It was Moses Henriquez who arrainged for the Brittish to come to Jamaica. Columbus was given large estates in Jamaica in perpetuity. It was beginning to appear that they were backing out of their deal with his heirs. The "Bucaniers" of the Island of Tortuga could see their days numbered there and the Cohen Henriquez Brothers saw the strategic position of Jamaica for their line of work. Upon the Brits arrival, Port Royal was settled.

This book has been quite a read. I'm at the point where the relationship with the Dutch is in flux. Stuyvestant lets them in then kicks them out then back in. I'm not done but I wish it was longer and some of my family was in it! Alas, Salt Water Farmers, Fishmongers and Taylors are we.

[Jib]

In my readings I find that most people who hated the Catholics often did so out of rumor and fear rather than personal experience. They were told repeatedly that the Pope was the Anti-Christ and his minions sought control of the world. Of course the Catholic Church was the largest landholder in Europe at the time and corruption was quite evident. Most people could not read did not have the personal relationship that Drake had with Catholics. They hated based upon what they were told and demonized them in turn.

Of course many a Catholic could hide in plain sight. The Christmas Carol "The Twelve Days of Christmas" is said to be teaching device used by Catholics to educate the tenets of the faith. Of course you had to go to church for prayer services (not attending earned you a fine) but in your privacy you could pray as you wish.

[Fox]

In my readings I find that most people who hated the Catholics often did so out of rumor and fear rather than personal experience. They were told repeatedly that the Pope was the Anti-Christ and his minions sought control of the world. Of course the Catholic Church was the largest landholder in Europe at the time and corruption was quite evident. Most people could not read did not have the personal relationship that Drake had with Catholics. They hated based upon what they were told and demonized them in turn.

The other side of the coin of course is that Catholics viewed Protestants as heretics who ought to be exterminated and otherwise mistreated unless there was a good political reason not to do so.

Not so much 'rumour and fear' as the tenets of religion.

[Jib]

Of course good members of the Church of England thought of Quakers, Ranters, Diggers, and many other sects as heretics.

Would it be fair to say you considered anyone who didn't pray like you to be a heretic?

[MarkG]

In my readings I find that most people who hated the Catholics often did so out of rumor and fear rather than personal experience. They were told repeatedly that the Pope was the Anti-Christ and his minions sought control of the world. Of course the Catholic Church was the largest landholder in Europe at the time and corruption was quite evident. Most people could not read did not have the personal relationship that Drake had with Catholics. They hated based upon what they were told and demonized them in turn.

Of course many a Catholic could hide in plain sight. The Christmas Carol "The Twelve Days of Christmas" is said to be teaching device used by Catholics to educate the tenets of the faith. Of course you had to go to church for prayer services (not attending earned you a fine) but in your privacy you could pray as you wish.

Snopes says that the 12 Days as a teaching device is a myth.

On the other hand, the English worried about the Spanish and Catholics for centuries after the Spanish Armada. A few Irish regiments were recruited for the English Civil War and, when captured, they were executed on the theory that Irish Catholics were too dangerous to be imprisoned.

In the New World, the cry "No peace beyond the line!" was supposed to come from the Spanish. This referred to the Line of Demarcation which the Pope drew, dividing the world. Any Protestants found on the wrong side of the line were subject to imprisonment for heresy. The Spanish were rather lax about enforcing this but the English believed that the Spanish were enforcing it. It became an excuse for raids on Spanish territory.

Mark

Mark

[Mission]

I thought this was sort of an interesting comment on religious [specifically in this case, 'Catholic'] practices vis-à-vis pirates. Its about the settlers of San Domingo [santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic] from Père Jean-Baptiste Labat's Memoires 1693-1705 (Translated from the original French by John Eaden, 1970). Before I post the quote of interest, I have to post something else to give it a bit of context.

"The settlers of San Domingo, however, do not put their trust in troops, but in themselves, for nearly all of them have been either buccaneers or filibusters and know how to fight and defend their families and belongings better than most people." (Labat, p. 149)

Basically that was to explain that we're talking about pirates. (Filibusters being a sort of French pirate and buccaneers being near pirates.)

"I cannot help saying that I was much scandalized by the little respect shown by the people [of San Domingo] for their religion. They came to church laughing and chaffing each other as if they were about to see some show or entertainment. Especially was this the case with those on the outside of the church, who leant on the top of the fence and spoke to each other much louder than I preached, continually introducing the name of God in their conversation in a manner I could not tolerate. I warned them to stop talking three or four times as gently as I could, but as this did not good, I was obliged to complain to some officers, who compelled them to keep silent.

After Mass a good man told me that I must be more tolerant with the people on the coast if I intended to liver with them." (Labat, p. 148)

[Jib]

I imagine that mass, in Latin, could be very boring for hard living people.