Prize Money questions

[Daniel]

So I'm listening to James de Kay's A Rage for Glory, the biography of Stephen Decatur, and I hear that Decatur and his officers got all mad because they didn't get any prize money for burning the captured USS Philadelphia in the harbor of Tripoli. When Congress just voted them two months' pay instead of prize money, Decatur and his officers considered it an insult and refused the award.

Now I'm thinking "WTF? You don't get prize money for burning an enemy vessel, do you? You have to capture the other guy's ship, bring it in and sell it, because that's where the money freakin' comes from, right?" But if so, why would Decatur and his officers ever have expected prize money in the first place? Is it possible that de Kay was confused, and that the angry American officers just thought they shold have been voted more salary, rather than expecting some percentage of the burned ship's value as "prize money?" Or had it actually become the law by the 19th century to award prize money for destroying vessels as well as capturing them?

Anyway, I looked at the Wikipedia article on prize money, and found another surprise. The first British prize courts, where vessels were brought in to be condemned as legal captures and sold, were only set up in 1708 by the Cruizers and Convoys Act! What did British privateers do with their captures before then? Just bring in any old vessel and put it on the market? That would have been a pirate's absolute dream. "Sure, she's a French ship. What do you mean, she looks English by the cut of her jib? Would I lie to you? Do you see any Englishmen aboard her? How about if I knock another 100 L. off the price, would that convince you?"

[Fox]

Can't speak for the American Navy, but in the Royal Navy it was decided (I forget when ) to pay men prize money for ships captured, sunk, or otherwise destroyed. The incentive of prize money was leading people to abandon their duty in pursuit of prizes during battle. Mayhap the USN had similar problems. Privateers, on the other hand, only got prize money for captured vessels.

Prior to 1708 most privateer prizes (possibly all) were condemmned in a Vice-Admiralty court.

[Tartan Jack]

Also, remember that the USN of the time was VERY similar to the RN. The American military original adopted a variation of British military "cuture," as many were British born and (originally) British trained. So, their past culture and what they were "used to" was the British way. Over time and new experiences, it diverged more and more into what it is today.

If what Foxe says was adopted by the RN, then the USN likely had something similar or at least the men expected similar.

At the time, the US Navy was still establishing itself after being a shadow-force following the end of the Revolution/American War (for you British and Scottish readers), the Navy having been largely disestablished at the end of conflict. Under Jefferson and the Barbary issues, it was just getting itself back together. The Philadelphia and it's sister-ships were pretty much the first ships of the "new American Navy."

Side topic:

The connections between the British culture and tactics can be seen in how the armies and ships moved and operated in the American Revolution. Using the Battle of Camden as an example, BOTH sides liked up using standard lines and the battle hinged on when the Patriot's weak side (facing the British strong side) fled the field and allowed the line to swing around and surround the American strong side.

- Sorry, I momentarily forget which side was weak and which was strong . . . -

The naval establishment was the same, with the Americans adopting what they knew and were "used to" doing already. Though by the War of 1812, the Americans were beginning to be more "unique. That said, many "Royal Navy" traditions were still in place . . .

[Fox]

... of the Revolution/American War (for you British and Scottish readers)...

You mean the "Colonial scuffle"?

(And the Scots are British - "English and Scottish", or "British", but not "British and Scottish").

Seriously, and my usual nationalistic jingoism aside, one of the reasons that the USN, and so many other navies, adopted Royal Navy systems and traditions was simply that they worked, and worked very well. The Royal Navy was not universally victorious by any means, but by the end of the eighteenth century it was undoubtedly the best navy in the world - that in itself would have been a good enough reason for emulating it.

[Tartan Jack]

(Side post . . . that was a topical reference to many Scots being offended by them being called "Brits" or "British." Such isn't just a new phenomenon, as the term "Brit" was loaded to the Scots during the time before and after the Act of Union (1707). Even today, a number of Scots react to being called by the term "Brit" the same as many American "Southerners" react to being called "Yankees." Now, back to the thread topic . . . )

[Gumbatz]

(Side post . . . that was a topical reference to many Scots being offended by them being called "Brits" or "British." Such isn't just a new phenomenon, as the term "Brit" was loaded to the Scots during the time before and after the Act of Union (1707). Even today, a number of Scots react to being called by the term "Brit" the same as many American "Southerners" react to being called "Yankees." Now, back to the thread topic . . . )

Yankees is a term "used" by southerners to talk about northerners.

Yankees come here for the winter and go home......D**n Yankees move here and stay....

Being a Yankee who moved south, I have heard this more than a few times....

[Tartan Jack]

I'm in South Carolina . . .

I'll stop there.

Now, back to thread on prizes.

[Capt. Sterling]

According to Tobacco Coast, Virgina established an Admiralty Court system back around 1660, then promptly forgot they had done so. According to this book only one ship was condemned in VA during the 17th century and because they were so uncertain as to what procedures to follow, constantly writing back and forth to England for instructions, Queen Anne actually forfeited her share on several occasions just to make up for all the confusion.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Capt. Sterling