Matusalem Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Does anyone have anby information on leather waistcoats? One, did they actually exist during GAoP? What does one look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 I don't recall ever having seen any record of a leather waistcoat. Doesn't mean they didn't exist, but I don't know of any. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Me either. Nothing in my sources. I can't even imagine a reason to make a waistcoat out of leather... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Hmmm.... The only thing I can think of, and it would be pre GAoP would be a Buff Coat? I have seen them sleeveless, so they would look like a waistcoat after a fashion... Just a rambling thought... Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Oh Buff Coats! They're still in use in the GAoP as far as I recall. I think we still see a couple around the American War for Independence too. Any armour guys on the forums to corroborate this for me? But they're not light leather, Matusalem. They're armour, you see... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 If anyone were in the tropics they wouldn't be caught dead (well maybe they would be dead) in any leather frock coats, no matter what the fashion. Take 80+ degrees and 100% humidity and leather isn't a good choice... -- Hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 I don't know if we can place buff-coats in the GAoP - though they were certainly used by cavalrymen until quite late in the 17th century - the Earl of Oxford's regiment may have been wearing them until 1696. At sea (or nearly) the latest reference I can immediately lay my hands on is the description of the costume of Captain Cable, a character in the play "News From Plymouth", by Sir William Davenant, which included a buff jerkin in 1673. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metusalem Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Thank ye for all the help. Now that I ponder, what could be worse than a seaman bound by wet leather from the open sea spray , even, as Hurricane pointed out, on a hot humid Caribbean day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 We-ell... Several items of leather clothing have been recovered from the Mary Rose (1545), but then a lot of landsmen were aboard her the day she sank, so it's quite possible that they didn't belong to the seamen. We also have records of leather clothes, lined with lamb skins, being provided for sailors on an early 17th century expedition to the frozen north - but there again it's unwise to apply that information to anything but the very unusual circumstances it referrs to. Nathaniel Butler wrote that he liked to wear a buff-coat in battle, but that was for protection, so again it's not really applicable. Y'know what? Forget the leather waistcoat - 'tis a silly idea Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 But they're not light leather, Matusalem. They're armour, you see... Not all of them. Dragoons and some mounted troops, certainly. But there were infantry officers who had them made of lighter leather for both fashion and general use. Having worn one of the lighter weight buff coats, they are great in the wind. On the other hand, one of my serjeants made a buff coat from some actual buff leather she acquired, oiled it properly with fish oil and coloured it with ochre. She wore it in a battle where it started to rain. By the end of it, she could barely stand up because of the weight. 1/4 inch thick leather that is oiled but not sealed soaks up water like a sponge. She was also an interesting shade of yellow....... Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 But you're talking ECW, right Rod? Not GAoP? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Not all of them. Dragoons and some mounted troops, certainly. But there were infantry officers who had them made of lighter leather for both fashion and general use. Do we actually have any evidence of that? I've not done any detailed research into buff coats, but I always understood the light-buff-coats-for-officer-fashion idea to be a bit of a reenactorism. And good to see you Hawkyns, not seen you round these parts for a while! Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Still in use up into the Restoration period, so arguably into the early part of GAoP. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Not a waistcoat but something in leather. Not sure of the date. Its says 1700. Maybe someone of much could tell me more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Yup. That's a buffcoat, Jack. It's actually made of elk hide, that one. It's armour. :) It's in the style of a Justcorps though. See the dog ear cuffs? This one is from Germany, I believe. I think it was destroyed in the war. The photo is from Kohler's "History of Costume". Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Thanks Kass. I saw that pic awhile ago and it took me about half an hour to find it again. Its a shame its been lost. I thought it might be relavant here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 So that's what dog ear cuffs look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Well, it's relevant in that it's odd. It's kinda like an old fashioned thing with new bells and whistles on it. It's neat. It keeps us from saying "they never..." And yeah, those are dog-ear cuffs, but they're usually worn turned back. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessie k. Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 It's kinda like an old fashioned thing with new bells and whistles on it. Being ignorant of such things...which part is old fashioned, and which is "new," at least for it's time? "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear, and life stands explained." --Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 The very concept of a buff-coat is the old part, they were definitely on the way out by 1700. The new part is the up-to-date style. Actually, the buff-coat in question is an interesting amalgamation. Apart from the cuffs it appears to be a pretty typical buff-coat in terms of cut and construction - and buff-coats were armour which only followed civilian fashion by accident, if at all. In 1700 the standard buff-coat shape happened to be superficially similar to the prevailing civilian fashion in coats, and so this example has got the added cuffs to complete the illusion. Take the cuffs off and it could date from 70 years earlier. I want one. :) Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Yeah. What he said! Seriously, except for the cuffs, it is so like the buff coats from the 1630s and 1640s, it's almost unbelievable. If I didn't know this one existed, I would certainly think they weren't around by this point. Foxe, darling, I'm sorry but I don't work in elk... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessie k. Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 How would you keep it closed? I don't see buttons or laces or anything...a belt? "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear, and life stands explained." --Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I don't see any closures in this photo either, Jesse, but other buff coats were closed by means of lacing. The lacing usually only came as far as the bottom of the sternum, but that's all your really need to keep the thing closed. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 How would you keep it closed? I don't see buttons or laces or anything...a belt? Either lacing or, in some cases, large hooks and eyes. Chances are you would also have a sword girdle and something this fancy would have an officer's sash. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I know I've seen this pic in one of my books. Something is tickling my brain, and it's shouting cuirassier, as in, this was designed to be worn under a breast/back plate. But I could be waaaaay wrong... (never trust those little voices in your head!) My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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