[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

I've seen a couple of websites that offer a "short sailors" waistcoat. I've seen pictures of a few reenactors with them on as well. What i am not finding is any historical mention of them. It's basically a waistcoat that only comes to the waist. Man I am full of questions this week. I'm hoping these were PC as i already picked one up last week from a Sutler in Saint Austine.

[L. Silver]

i think i saw those sold by somke and fire, they had alot of things that were french cut or style. you know the problem with the french is they are just so french. you might try doing a period sreach on the other side of the channel. pirates wear what they catch. it does look good they had a longer one they was good looking too.

[callenish gunner]

Most of the period paintings I've seen of sailors depict them wearing a shorter waistcoat ...so I would surmise that they would indeed be period for GAOP but I have been wrong before ....(Did I type that out loud???)

Gentleman of Fortune's page

This post has been edited by callenish gunner: 19 November 2009 - 12:32 PM

[michaelsbagley]

callenish gunner, on 19 November 2009 - 12:29 PM, said:

Most of the period paintings I've seen of sailors depict them wearing a shorter waistcoat ...so I would surmise that they would indeed be period for GAOP but I have been wrong before ....(Did I type that out loud???)

Gentleman of Fortune's page

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I've looked for it recently (but not too hard), and not found it, but if you can find the link to Foxe's images of sailors from the GAoP, you will see that short waistcoats seem to be a bit more common than the longer ones (for sailors anyways). And I will state (overstate) that while short waistcoats seem to be more common (based on those images and others I have seen), long waistcoats are seen enough as well. Or there is always the chance that Foxe will see this and re-post the link himself (or BlackJohn and/or GoF often seems to have this link at his fingertips as well).

[Bos'n Cross]

My research seems to correspond with mikes.....if the sailors had waistcoats, they seemed to be of a shorter cut that those of an average man(my impression has always been so that they would fit under the short jackets)....bbbuuutttt more than anything, iv seen more engravings and paintings showing sailors oonnllyy wearing the jackets and neckerchiefs on the upper body...but thats just what iv seen........

[Hawkyns]

It's often hard to tell from period engravings, but are we sure we are talking about short waistcoats and not jerkins? The cut of the one in the picture, especially the pockets, just seems to scream 19th C to me. Even the shortest of the pics in Foxe's collection does not show anything above the waistline. I see several that could be either waistcoat or jerkin but all extend below the belt line.

Hawkyns

[MarkG]

Hawkyns, on 19 November 2009 - 07:45 PM, said:

It's often hard to tell from period engravings, but are we sure we are talking about short waistcoats and not jerkins? The cut of the one in the picture, especially the pockets, just seems to scream 19th C to me. Even the shortest of the pics in Foxe's collection does not show anything above the waistline. I see several that could be either waistcoat or jerkin but all extend below the belt line.

Hawkyns

I think that a sleeved, short waistcoat was common among sailors from late in the 17th century well into the 18th century. You can see this in several period pictures including the ones of Anne Bonny and Mary Read dressed as men (with cleavage). The one of Blackbeard wearing a thrum cap might also be a sleeved waistcoat.

All it takes is once in a boat in a longer waistcoat and you see why they wore shorter ones.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

What luck you're in, as I happen to have the 1731 & 1740 slop contracts out on my desk today :)

Striped ticken waistcoats not less than 30 inches in length (1731) or specifically 30" (1740)
Kersey waistcoats 31.5 & 29 inches in length, depending on quality/cost (both years)

It's also important to note that the ticken waistcoats are lined with white linen & have 2 linen pockets, while the kersey waistcoats are unlined & have no mention of pockets.

Chole

[Dorian Lasseter]

Interesting topic...

I was conversing with a fellow in France and he sent me an image out of a book - I wish I knew what book - of a sailor, circa 1700, wearing a short jacket over a long wesket...



And check out the moustache!!!


Edit;
Here's the site it's from; http://historic-mari...rmeimagerie.htm

This post has been edited by Dorian Lasseter: 20 November 2009 - 12:12 PM

[Capt. Sterling]

oh thanks Dorian

[Dorian Lasseter]

Comment, Capitaine Sterling? Y a-t-il un problème ?

[Capt. Sterling]

Non, aucun problème, juste un intéressant trouve. Il est agréable de voir autre chose.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Mais oui!

[Cuisto Mako]

Carefull there, these images of french sailors from the 17th and 18th century are actually contemporary stuff from the early 20th century

This post has been edited by Cuisto Mako: 20 November 2009 - 03:53 PM

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Just found this in my collection. I remember this illustration is just slightly out of period, but I think it is pretty clear what this sailor is wearing.

[MarkG]

Mooseworth, on 20 November 2009 - 04:37 PM, said:

Just found this in my collection. I remember this illustration is just slightly out of period, but I think it is pretty clear what this sailor is wearing.

This looks pretty consistent with earlier ones. No pockets. Smaller cuffs than landsmen wear so that the sleeves don't get caught on things. I've heard that sailor's fashions changed more slowly than other trades.

Notice that his tricorn is "backwards". I've seen this before on sailors.

Mark

[Jack Roberts]

Hey look it's Sterling!

[Capt. Sterling]

Cuisto Mako, on 20 November 2009 - 03:51 PM, said:

Carefull there, these images of french sailors from the 17th and 18th century are actually contemporary stuff from the early 20th century

Most assuredly agree, but sure has opened a door to want to start looking for any extant 17th/18th century evidence those pictures are based on...

[Capt. Sterling]

Jack Roberts, on 21 November 2009 - 09:52 AM, said:

Hey look it's Sterling!

**Whack** do I have to put ye on a leash too, like Dogge?? Like I would ever wear such a colour combination....sheesh...

This post has been edited by Capt. Sterling: 21 November 2009 - 10:22 AM

[Cheeky Actress]

Hmm...I do remember a light coloured coat...but green stockings...Robert. They would have to be green!

[Capt. Sterling]

Actually it seems green was the rage during the 1660s-70s(a time frame, the crewe is not doing as far as pyracy goes)... Kass has stated some where in Twill that shades of indigo were more in keeping with our time frame...

This post has been edited by Capt. Sterling: 21 November 2009 - 12:16 PM

[Jack Roberts]

I really need to start working on my period dye swatch book.

[Foxe]

There's a link to my (badly in need of updating) picture site in my signature, and there's a discussion about these French sailor images somewhere on the Pirate Brethren forum.

[Badger]

Is green EVER out o' fashion?!?

This post has been edited by Badger: 22 November 2009 - 11:27 AM

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Here is my Short Jacket Page

http://www.gentlemen....com/Jacket.htm