Bully MacGraw Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Period Fencing and Single Stick As the use of the sword was such an important part of daily life in our period, I propose that we in this form use our hobby to further the fine art of defense. The small sword was part of the education of every gentleman and single stick was a common competition. What can we do to promote the art? In my own area there are Nautical Fencing Seminars and it does seem that our own Black John and his lads are practicing the art on the East Coast. Now I am not talking about modern fencing with all the “right of Way rules” Nor am I talking about the SCA convention of losing your limbs and bouncing about like Monte Python's Black Knight. I am talking about the marshal art. Now to start my quest, I, without the least bit of humility step forward with grand vanity, and claim to be the finest Swordsman on the South Sea (Pacific Coast). Having proven myself with small sword and fighting in the Neapolitan Style. I challenge every and all to prove my claim to be false! Who are the finest swordsman on the forum. Let us have tournament at our gatherings. The populous enjoys the sport. And I, as a 50 year retired soldier do enjoy educating the young bucks at the end of my weapon. Good Day to all. I stand ready and willing to be disproven Your Most humble and obedient servant Bully MacGraw AKA Baptiste Those destined to hang, shall not fear drowning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Tar Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 "Aye, the most impressive stick fightin' display I've seen, was Philipino stick fightin'. So, ye want us t' beat ye wit' sticks?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully MacGraw Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 My dear lad, I question your ability to beat me with a stick! Those destined to hang, shall not fear drowning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Tar Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 My dear lad, I question your ability to beat me with a stick! "I'm rusty, I'll give ye that. But I've had trainin' wit' Boken and Bo, no short sword trainin'." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 A fine thing that, fencing in the round... I am an Elizabethan trained fencer... Sadly, as much as I would enjoy a fine duel with ye, I am on the east coast and don't forsee me traveling to your realm... I consider myself a goode swordsman, fifteen years ago I would have boasted better... It is a pity there aren't many about to practice on.. er, with... as a side note, I have played in the SCA, the rules are there for a reason, but I prefer the way we duel in F&I reenactment, we will call out or show a minor hit, but any solid hit ends the fight... almost a 'first blood' type of duel... Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Tar Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 "Dorian, no doubt ye would best us wit' sword or steel. This Bully McGraw, is talkin' sticks, where the fightin' ends when the opponent is no longer standin'." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cat Jenny Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 www.historicalmaritimecombat.com This may be of interest to some.. Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.... Her reputation was her livelihood. I'm a pirate, love. By nature and by choice! My inner voice sometimes has an accent! My wont? A delicious rip in time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully MacGraw Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 My dear Jacky Tarr. Please re- read my post. Single stick is a training weapon for back sword and cutlass. I am talking Western Marshal Arts. My personal favorite is the small sword. Red Cat. That is an excellent link. The instructors are noted fencing masters. I do believe that they have given this seminar on the East Coast and once last year. The fellows and Ladies of Tales of the Sea participated and had a grand time and offer their recommendation, Those destined to hang, shall not fear drowning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully MacGraw Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Black John's Forum offers much information on swords from the Golden Age: http://www.piratebrethren.com/forum/ Here is a link to their sword fighting photos: http://www.piratebrethren.com/swordfight20...ordfight01.html Cheers Ed Those destined to hang, shall not fear drowning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Tar Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 "My apologies, my experience wit' the Asian Marshal arts, was not quite so genteel!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 There are many schools and groups out there working on Western Martial Arts, and they range from groups doing little more than choreographed stage work to full contact sparring. Some use wooden practice blades, some steel blunts, some wear masks and protective gear, some don't. The idea that pirates on this board could ever come together to agree on a particular weapon/armour standard/combat convention seems like more than a bit of a pipe dream to me. My own crew fights with steel blunts (mostly Armour Class) and follows a variation on the SK rules- edge only, no head or neck shots. No masks or armour, not choreographed, and pulling the blows just at the point of contact. I work mostly from Silver's manual, but also use some of Terry Brown's info and some of the style from the Highland Broadsword manuals. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Red Cat. That is an excellent link. The instructors are noted fencing masters. I do believe that they have given this seminar on the East Coast and once last year. The fellows and Ladies of Tales of the Sea participated and had a grand time and offer their recommendation, Glad the link is of use! I actually am one of those instructors, and if Ican help in any way please feel free to contact me here or thru the HMCA site. I agree with Hawkyns that getting eveyone to agree is a pipr dream, but that's not a bad thing. We all approach the art the best way we see fit as it pertains to our specific interest. The HMCA teaches maritime combat as a serious western martial art, and everything taught in the seminars is designed to disable or kill as quickly as possible. We canb taylor it to re enactors easily enough and our biggest draw has been Tales of the Seven Seas under Poison Quill. We are also instructing annually at ISMAC in Michigan; the link is below for those intersted. The nest seminar will be in Santa Clara California in May and info can be had thru the HMCA site. Look forward to seeing you there! Gareth Thomas, AKA Monterey Jack www.artofcombat.org www.HistoricalMaritimeCombat.com Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilasTalbot Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Glad the link is of use! I actually am one of those instructors, and if Ican help in any way please feel free to contact me here or thru the HMCA site. I have to say...the HMCA site is fantastic. I would love to discuss the possibility of your doing something in Boston in the future. In addition to my SAFD background, I've tried to augment my own knowledge by working with the Higgins Armoury Museum's Sword Guild. It did allow me to meet Patri Pugliese, the single greatest source of period manuals I've yet found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I have to say...the HMCA site is fantastic. I would love to discuss the possibility of your doing something in Boston in the future. In addition to my SAFD background, I've tried to augment my own knowledge by working with the Higgins Armoury Museum's Sword Guild. It did allow me to meet Patri Pugliese, the single greatest source of period manuals I've yet found. Thanks for the compliments! Always good to know we're getting good PR! Steve Huff (aka "Jag") is in Maryland and would be your primary contact to set something up, but we would all be happy to work with you anytime. Patri is not only a great source but a gentleman as well. I had the good fortune to meet with him in the bay area back in my days with the SAFD as well. Jared Kirby is also a wealth of info text-wise. I'd be happy to put you in touch with him. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Steve Huff (aka "Jag") is in Maryland... I think I met him once last year... seemed a decent fellow. It is unfortunate that he's in Maryland, that the Pirate Brethren is in Maryland, and we've never really crossed swords... errrr... I mean paths. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Black John's Forum offers much information on swords from the Golden Age:http://www.piratebrethren.com/forum/ Here is a link to their sword fighting photos: http://www.piratebrethren.com/swordfight20...ordfight01.html Cheers Ed Thanks for the plug. Fwiw, a very large percentage of the Pirate Brethren spent a very large percentage of their reenacting time doing medieval. Most of them are more than happy to bash each other with whatever may be at hand. Me? I found I have a bad habit of wanting to stick people. My main interest today lies in trying to find better and safer ways of sticking people without it looking too modern. As an aside, here's a link to a movie of Scurvy Hanna and Palmetto goofing around with swords. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 As someone who started out with Olympic style foil fencing, and then moved to medieval blunted steel sword fighting, I had an incredibly difficult time breaking the habit of wanting to use thrusts... I eventually did manage to find a way of doing thrusts that is still safe enough (by the standards of most dulled steel combatants, but opinions may vary), and it looks reasonably realistic as well... I don't know if I can explain it fully or properly here, a it is one of those things that is definately easier to show (maybe we can cross blades sometime ), but it essentially boils down to thrusting with the blade at a slight angle so that when it contacts your opponent, it skids across his/her body... Almost like the opposite of a draw cut, yeah, like a push cut. If you keep your elbow unlocked, on the chance you misjudge (or your opponent makes an unexpected movement), you will less likely injure your opponent as the pressure of the connection will cause your arm to bend back rather than the point of your weapon being driven into your opponent... Another thing to keep in mind is trying to do thrusts of this variety going with your opponent's body dynamic... if his body is turned more one way or the other (as it should if he/she is using a proper combat stance) do the push/draw thrust so that if said opponent does move laterally, again your point will more likely be knocked away from him/her rather than be thrust harder into him/her... Hope this makes sense, I can try to elaborate more if you have any questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Steve Huff (aka "Jag") is in Maryland... I think I met him once last year... seemed a decent fellow. It is unfortunate that he's in Maryland, that the Pirate Brethren is in Maryland, and we've never really crossed swords... errrr... I mean paths. I don't know about you personally, but Jag has met with the Brethren; he sent us some photos of a festival he was invited to by them. Had a fantastic time as I recall! Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 You must have contact info for him... I'd love to invite him to our '07 events! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 You must have contact info for him... I'd love to invite him to our '07 events! Yep; we talk about twice a week; you can access his email thru the HMCA site or contact me off-list and I'll get it for ye! The guy is just amazing with tomahwk, knife and boarding axe; makes Mel Gibson's "Patriot" look like Richard Simmons..... Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Hope this makes sense, I can try to elaborate more if you have any questions. Thanks. It actually does, but my situation is as follows, over the years I have come to realize I don't even want to do mock combat. I want to be able to *hit* the other guy. Preferably hard, or at least in a way that my opponent and I can say, "yeah, that was a kill shot." Ymmv, and that's ok. Jack, thanks. I'll check out the website and get his info there. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Thanks. It actually does, but my situation is as follows, over the years I have come to realize I don't even want to do mock combat. I want to be able to *hit* the other guy. Preferably hard, or at least in a way that my opponent and I can say, "yeah, that was a kill shot." Singlestick is great for that. I competed at ISMAC two years ago and did fairly well up til a guy connected with my fencing mask as about 60mph with the ash stick. Completely spun me around on the strip and when I got up the bleachers were empty. The hit had SO disoriented me I was facing the wrong way and didn't even know it. The guy suffered horribly after that..... Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Have to say Black John and Montery Jack, you are both more extreme than I... I love combat more than most, but I am pretty set on keeping it as real as possible with as little chance of real injury as possible (accepting all the sacrifices that stance brings with it)... Bumps and bruises are badges of honour (for me in my mind anyway ), but seeing stars and being knocked unconscious is something for the braver and bolder I guess. I had a discussion similar to this with an old aquaintance... We were discussion competetive dulled steel combat versus SCA heavy fighting. To quote him on this "You can fake fight with real(ish) weapons, or you can really fight with fake weapons...". That quote has always been my favourite way of summing things up since I heard it. He prefered the really fighting with fake weapons, and I was (and still am) a huge advocate of the fake fighting with real(ish) weapons... (Although I still attest the fighting with fake weapons can be done pretty realsitically if done well enough) This Shortsticking business sounds like it bridges the two as the sticks are real weapons in their own way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Have to say Black John and Montery Jack, you are both more extreme than I... I love combat more than most, but I am pretty set on keeping it as real as possible with as little chance of real injury as possible (accepting all the sacrifices that stance brings with it)... Bumps and bruises are badges of honour (for me in my mind anyway ), but seeing stars and being knocked unconscious is something for the braver and bolder I guess. Nothing wrong with that: I spent 12 years doing stage combat, and slowly worked into historic weapons play. Now I can switch off as needed within the parameters of the HMCA and have about four teenage girls I'm teaching combat cutlass / knife tactics to. can't wait til my daughter is old enough start kicking maritime butt! Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Reid Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 we even have a practicing guild in Oklahoma. The midwestern historical fencing project. We have had Bob Charron and several others in to seminar for us. Also, the Bramble School out of Springfield, MO is a great bunch of guys. Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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