MorganTyre Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 It seems most of the more elaborate knots we all know were inventions (or at least made popular) of the 19th century. Does anyone know of any (possibly scholarly) work on dating knots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Funnily enough I was thinking on this very subject this afternoon. I agree that we don't really see what we would call decorative knotwork until the 19th century, not the really elaborate stuff anyway. However, one does occasionally come across practical knots being used to decorate things (not necessarily in a maritime context) earlier than that. When I'm doing period ropework I tend not to use any knot that doesn't have a practical application. In answer to your question, I don't know of any source offhand for dating knots. I was considering this afternoon that I might contact some of the various shipwreck museums and see what, if anything, they have. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 A quick scan through the usual sources: Some rope recovered from the Mary Rose (1545) has been whipped. Butler (1620s-30s) mentions bowlines, wale-knots (wall-knots), and sheepshanks; plaited sennits and sennet mats; cringles, and splicing: Splicing is nothing else but the making fast of ropes one into another, by opening the strands or twists at the end of both the ropes; and then with a fid to lay every strand in order one into another. Also when an eye is to be made at the end of any rope, the ends of the strands being severed, twists are, with a fid, drawn into the ends of the other rope's strands, and this is called a splice. now of these splaices there are two sorts: The round splice which is (as aforesaid) the interweaving of the ends of the two ropes, one into another, and the other which is (barously or rather bawdily) called the cunt-splice, and this is when the strands of either rope are put into another, a good distance off from the very ends, and those very ends left out unspliced; by which work is fashioed a long slit, the which with these rude name-coiners begat the name.[butler is almost certainly badly describing the short-splice, eye-splice, and cut.] A Sea Dictionary (1708) mentions bending two ropes together as an alternative to splicing them; bowlings (bowlines), and wale-knots. Coles' Dictionary (1724) mentions bending a cable to the anchor (presumably with an anchor bend) Falconer* (1749) mentions diamond knot, rose knot, and wall knot; crowning, which from his description sounds like a back splice (and of course a back splice starts with a crown knot); half hitch, clove hitch (used, says Falconer, for fastening ratlines to shrouds), rolling hitch; Unnamed bends, of which there were various he tells us; sheepshank. Smith's Sea Grammar apparently names some other knots - but my copy doesn't have an index so it may take some time to find them... Various knots appear on coats of arms (the Stafford knot springs to mind), so that might be another avenue worth pursuing. *Of interest to the rope enthusiast might be Falconer's definition of "Beckets" BECKETS, (billé, Fr.) imply in general any thing used to confine loose ropes, tackles, oars, or spars, in a convenient place, where they may be disposed out of the way till they are wanted. Hence, beckets are either large hooks, or short pieces of rope, with a knot on one end and an eye in the ocher, or formed like a circular wreath; or they are wooden brackets; and, probably, from a corruption and misapplication of this last term, arose the word becker, which seems often to be confounded with bracket. Put the tacks and sheets in the BECKETS! the order to hang up the weather main and fore-sheet, and the lee main and fore-tack, to a little knot and eye-becket on the foremost main and fore-shrouds, when the ship is close hauled, to prevent them from hanging in the water. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganTyre Posted October 6, 2006 Author Share Posted October 6, 2006 Fascinating info. Thanks Foxe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 You're welcome Morgan, like I said, I was thinking about it myself. Quick scan through Smith reveals: seizing, sennets, parcelling and serving, short splices and cuts, wall knots, bowlines, and sheepshanks. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Cool..... and those are knots and splices that I know how to make..... Great info...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganTyre Posted October 6, 2006 Author Share Posted October 6, 2006 Considering both the wall and the crown existed is it safe to assume that the variations and combinations of the two (manrope knots, etc.) would have developed at this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 It's a fairly logical progression, and nobody could ever tell you it was wrong, but that's not the same as having evidence. Your call. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 And a couple more. I had assumed turk's heads were probably medieval, but couldn't put my finger on why. Then I found a million (well, maybe not quite a million) pictures of swords from the 16/17thC with turks heads in wire on the hilt. The earliest written reference to a carrick bend appears to come from 1783, but the 16thC plaster decoration of Ormonde Castle in Carrick-on-Suir shows the bend, and the coincidence of the name is too much to be believed. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Keeping them coming... The reef knot can be seen in Roman decoration, but I've also recently seen it etched on the blade of a 16thC sword. A medical manual of AD386 (no citation available, sorry) apparently shows various knots used for tying slings and bandages: "A square knot, overhand noose, larks head, clove hitch, overhand knot, fisherman loop knot, Tom fool knot, jug sling and a cat cradle." Of course, this is a lot earlier than the GAoP, so it's quite on the cards that some of them may have fallen from use. The figure of eight can be seen in the armorial bearings of the Counts of Savoy (Savoy knot is another name for it) from the 13th century. I'm pleased to have been able to date this one - it's so simple that it must have been around, but it's nice to have some proof. Leonardo da Vinci drew turk's heads in disk form as well as ring. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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