Rateye Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 After the insane weekend of the "Prickity Stitcher", I've taken to using some of the extras I have laying around, and therefore I'm wondering about the options for pocket shapes and how to make pockets on a jacket? Also I'm wondering about the different types of cuffs common for GAoP. Were they always huge? Rats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Hi Rats, I guess the Captain didn't show you the historical notes for the Frock Coat pattern. All this stuff is in there. The GAoP is probably the era with the largest variation in pocket flaps and cuff styles that I can think of. There are pockets with no flaps and pockets with huge, oddly shaped flaps. There are vertical pockets, double vertical pockets, horizontal pockets, doublet horizontal pockets... If you look at period artwork, you'll see how ridiculous they became before they got sensible around 1720 and just made the kind of flaps you see on Rev War coats. Cuffs on frock coats were usually huge, yes, and only just covered the elbow. You can see a bunch of variations in the pictures here and here There were also coats without the so-called "dog ear cuffs", but they were usually those of the lower orders. Or, as luck would have it, sailors! Later in the 18th century, there was the development of "the mariner's cuff" which came to be the style of cuff worn by seamen (and still exists today on British Naval uniforms). It's a narrow sleeve with a flap not unlike a pocket flap on it. In the GAoP, this was not yet codified, but the narrow, buttoned sleeves were more common on seamen's jackets than any other cuff type (except, of course, the ubiquitous turn-backs). Foxe found an interesting "hybrid" at one point. It's a frock coat, but it had mariner's cuffs. It was worn by a ship's captain. The theory is that the huge dog-ear cuffs of the period weren't conducing to a sailor's work, even a captains. Foxe, darling, can you point us to that picture again? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Hi Rats,I guess the Captain didn't show you the historical notes for the Frock Coat pattern. All this stuff is in there. No I did not show him, after all that Pricketty stitching, he would have been too blurry eyed to read it. I shall send him the info post haste though...and the picture of that brown 1720s coat... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Yes yes. The 1720s coat. And the one from Manchester with the really weird cuffs and pockets, just for comparison. Would you? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rateye Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 Did someone say Prickitty Stitch!!!! AAAAAAAaaaaargh!!!!! Rats BTW: Forever grateful ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Did someone say Prickitty Stitch!!!! AAAAAAAaaaaargh!!!!! Rats BTW: Forever grateful ! :lol "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Yes yes. The 1720s coat. And the one from Manchester with the really weird cuffs and pockets, just for comparison. Would you? Done Empress!!! "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Captain, your crew's gone mad! Do you have to keep moving so they won't prick stitch you too?!?! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Your wish is my comm... oh, here we go again. I suspect the picture you were thinking of Kass is this one of a sea-gunner from 1692 But there's also Blackjohn's favourite of 1709, featuring a Dutch sea captain. The one I find really fascinating though is this portrait of Sir John Leake (1656-1720), showing a turn back cuff with a mariners' cuff. Given that this guy is an Admiral posing for a portrait it makes me wonder whether the mariners' cuff was a sea-fashion as well as a practical proposition. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Do we know what the name of the 1709 DUtch picture and who the artist is? I would love to see it in color. Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Thank you, Foxe. The one I was thinking of was Leake's portrait -- because it shows the mariner's cuff in a fashionable context. But thank you for posting the others. It'll give Rats some great variations. I owe you one! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Captain, your crew's gone mad! Do you have to keep moving so they won't prick stitch you too?!?! Good Heavens Madame! No one of them be pricketty stitchin near my... ahem.... person. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Do we know what the name of the 1709 DUtch picture and who the artist is? I would love to see it in color.Greg Ditto and Leake's portrait as well... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Your wish is my comm... oh, here we go again. Oh my gad, she does this to you too?!?! "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I should have patented that prick stich before I spread it around! I'd be buying the Archangel by now... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I should have patented that prick stich before I spread it around! I'd be buying the Archangel by now... Oi!?! Maybe its not too late?? Not to fret, Mr. March is going to build that next after the swivel gun and the cannons, we should have the swivel at RF2... now we just need a place to start the ship! "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Thighbiter Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I am a fashion neophyte compared to some of you folks, but i often wonder reading the discussions on fashion and coats and frocks and other fine points if we place a bit too much weight on crude wood cuts and the occasional painting. I doubt that the artists were trying to accurately depict the exactitude of fasion in the pictorials, but rather the act going on in the scene. Also, think about how wild and veried fashion is today. How many variations of a basic neckline today for instance. Why would the fashion in the GOaP be different? Each seamstress would have perhaps made his or her little change to an existing pattern or maybe saw something and decided to give it a twist. Not doubting the woodcuts and pics have significance but to claim that it was THE way fashion was is kinda narrow vision, to my mind of thinking. Pirate music at it's best, from 1650 onwards The Brigands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I am a fashion neophyte compared to some of you folks, but i often wonder reading the discussions on fashion and coats and frocks and other fine points if we place a bit too much weight on crude wood cuts and the occasional painting. I doubt that the artists were trying to accurately depict the exactitude of fasion in the pictorials, but rather the act going on in the scene. Also, think about how wild and veried fashion is today. How many variations of a basic neckline today for instance. Why would the fashion in the GOaP be different? Each seamstress would have perhaps made his or her little change to an existing pattern or maybe saw something and decided to give it a twist. Not doubting the woodcuts and pics have significance but to claim that it was THE way fashion was is kinda narrow vision, to my mind of thinking. The are numerous fashion plates that still exist from the time frame that the Archangel crewe covers... true they mostly cover the people of quality but there are quite a few that cover middling sorts as well. So there is a lot that covers this period other than just the woodcuts... some of the plates are truly amazing and were drawn strictly to show what people were wearing... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Did you not read my first post, Captain Thighbiter? I was telling Rats about how many different and varied cuff and pocket treatments there were in this period. There certainly were great variations in fashionable(and non-fashionable) clothing. But it is a definable quantity. For example, we know that curved fronts on the Frock Coat (that we see on F&I and Rev War coats) didn't come around until the 1720s. And we almost never see a collar on a frock coat in the GAoP. Collars come around early mid-century and then get larger and larger until they stand up on their own at the end of the 18th century. There are definitely things we can track and their uses have distinct beginnings and endings. We have a great deal of information from this period -- extant garments, detailed paintings, tailors' pattern books -- so we have more than just a few crude woodcuts to go on. Just because Foxe only posted three here doesn't mean that's all there is. To assume so would be rather naive. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rateye Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 So it's basically a tighter turnover cuff with three buttons securing it? Looks like the gunner's jacket is also a bit shorter, mid thigh or knee level? That would probably be more a woking man's coat? I'm also wondering about the collars and lapels you always see (Ok it's in the movies, so it's probably guff) that button over and such? Late 1700s? God I love this stuff! Rats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rateye Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 You beat me to it Darlin! ANswered me question as I was writing it! You're a quick one you are! Rats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 So it's basically a tighter turnover cuff with three buttons securing it? Not quite. It's more like a tight sleeve with buttons securing the outseam. The turnback cuffs aren't usually buttoned. Sometimes, but they're usually just turnbacks. Looks like the gunner's jacket is also a bit shorter, mid thigh or knee level?That would probably be more a woking man's coat? You mean like this fine example of the species? This is a sailor's jacket made according to the GAoP Admiralty Slop Contract Specifications. We also see similar jackets on common men in picture series such as "The Cryes of London" and other such sources. And there are four of them extant from burials in Ireland and Scotland. I'm also wondering about the collars and lapels you always see (Ok it's in the movies, so it's probably guff) that button over and such? Late 1700s? Without seeing the specific pieces to which you refer, I can only say "most likely". Face revers (lapels) are seen in the GAoP, but not collars. God I love this stuff! Me too! Welcome to my madness! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 God I love this stuff! Rats Oh you pricketty stitcher you!!! "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 The 1709 picture was painted by Willem van Mieris, sorry, I don't have a title. The Leake portrait was painted by Godfrey Kneller. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 This is how I did the Mariners cuffs.... Mine is made from a semi-thin wool blanket (yah... it should have been lined in wool, not cotten) it is a little longer than Kass's version. I based mine off the wood cut Foxe just re-posted.... There are some other photos as I made the coat, but you'll have to cycle through photobuckets to see tham..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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