Where DID Pyrates keep their weapons?

[Patrick Hand]

In the "Who's who on ship, Titles on a pirate ship" thread, Capt.William said.

Did pirates carry and care for their own personal weapons? Probably: and yet I doubt that they climbed rigging wearing cutlasses and a brace of heavy pistol. They must have stowed their weaonry somewhere. (?)

He's right about not wearing weapons when working aboard ship, I discovered that really quickly when playing on the Royalite... they just get in the way...

So where would they keep them? A cutlass, musket or walking stick (cudgel*) is too big to put in a sea chest, so racks would be very handy... and someplace convenient to keep pistols, safe, but accessible when needed.

On a Naval or Merchant vessel they would be kept locked up, but on a Pyrate ship would the crew have access to their weapons whenever they wanted them for maintenance? Saltwater does fun things to the metal parts on weapons, so maintenance would be a regular occurrence.

I know from personal experience, from the Army and Black powder shooting, that you never handle another persons weapon without permission. I don't know if this is a modern concept, or a long-standing tradition. But if weapons were not locked up, I can't see a Pyrate messing with another Pyrates weapons (Look at the "Articles" against theft onboard ship) People get very "touchy" about their weapons, and I think this would be true even back then...

Maybe a numbered rack for cutlasses... If going into action, I'm still going to want "MY" cutlass... When I was in the Army, my M-16 was exactly the same as the ones to the left and right on the rack. It was sighted in for my use, but even though it belonged to the government. It was MINE....I took care of it, and was very possessive about it. I don't know if sailors felt the same way about their weapons... But I think they would have.

I don't think Pyrates just threw their weapons into a heap in the corner, racks keep weapons safe and accessible...

Now would there be weapons racks on a ship? Where would these rack be? Were they locked or not, and how did Pyrates feel about their weapons ...

* Foxe has posted pictures showing sailors onshore with walking sticks, I figure that these walking sticks were more for protection (cudgels), than fashion. but are not as "menacing" as carrying around a cutlass and brace of pistols. But they still won't fit into a sea chest...

[JoshuaRed]

Weren't weapons lockers often in the great cabin?

[Daniel]

Well, what clues can we pick up from the naval service? Granted that arms were kept under lock and key most of the time, surely it must have been necessary at times to send navy sailors aloft during battle, after they had been given weapons. Torn sails would have to be furled or cut loose, damaged rigging repaired, etc. Did those sailors go aloft armed, and if not, where did they leave their weapons meanwhile?

[blackjohn]

What might help answer this question is a map showing weapon dispersal among the wreckage of the Whydah. Clifford & co. uncovered plenty of weapons, it would be interesting to see if any where recovered in unusual places, if high concentrations were found in one place, if they were recovered with the remains of arms' chests, etc.

[Dorian Lasseter]

This also raises another question....

As in RN service, the only sailors on a ship possessing PERSONAL weapons (Swords, Pistols), were the officers.... the crew were dispersed arms from the Armoury... A sailor did not get the same pistol/cutlass/etc. every time they went into battle...

Now, in the few surviving copies of pirate ships articles, at least one mentions that each person is to keep their arms in proper fighting condition, speculating that each sailor on a pirate ship kept their arms with them, not locked in an Armoury...

So... who can say? It might have been a mish-mash of some keeping their weapons with their dunnage, others keeping them in an Armoury, not necessarily locked up, just in a common location for storage...

[capnwilliam]

I raised a really good question, didn't I? I confess that I haven't an inkling of what the answer is, more's the pity...

Capt. William

[Patrick Hand]

I confess that I haven't an inkling of what the answer is,

I haven't either.... I can make some guesses, but like the "earring" arguement, I'd probably be wrong......

[blackjohn]

I asked Ken, and the word is that there was no discernible pattern to the recovered firearms, that they were not concentrated together in any one area of the ship, that they were not found in context with arms chests, and that there was speculation that some of the long arms may have been bound together. Of course, there is a caveat that the ship was pummeled by a storm, and thus rendering interpretation problematic.

[Rumba Rue]

Well according to what I've found out courtsey of the sailors of the tall ships at Dana Pt. in Calif. is that most of the sailors would carry a 'working' knife on them. The rest such as swords and firearms would be put into a long box, usually somewhere out of the sea salt air, and locked. Only when going into some kind of battle would the weapons be handy.

Hope this answers some questions

[Patrick Hand]

I'm still not sure about weapons being "locked up" on a Pyrate ship.... On a Merchant or Naval vessle, they would be, But would Pyrates want to give controll of their weapons to someone else ?

[JoshuaRed]

I'd wager that any ship of the time would have a general catch-all box for miscellaneous weapons that didn't belong to any certain crew member, but just kind of wound up on the ship over time. Basic axes, pikes, assorted knives, maybe some well worn firearms, etc.

And in addition the pirates probably kept their own good personal weapons with their personal effects.

[blackjohn]

I've got my answer, from the professionals. Until they find a chest full of arms the archaeological evidence doesn't seem to support the idea.

My personal perspective... sure, I'd have no problem keeping my musket in a rack. But my pistols... no way dude! You know the saying, "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers."

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Just a thought, no evidence for support, but...

What about where they slept? when off-watch their berth would be empty, and we are all aware of the fact that theivery within ranks was practically non existent, so would they have stowed the long arms in the hammock, or possibly racked them on the framing timbers or mast near their berth? It makes sense that pistols and long knives could be kept in an individuals sea chest, but obviuosly the cutlasses and muskets would have to be dealt with differently. Anything to support this?

Capt. Bo

[Patrick Hand]

The problim with that.... is hammocks are taken down durring the day....

I'm still leaning towards a rack where they can be stowed, but also accessable and not locked .....

You would want them close and handy for when you needed them, but out of the way for when you didn't

[Rumba Rue]

Well the reasoning for keeping the 'big stuff' away from the crew unless needed would be so the Captian could still retian his leadership of the ship without being killed. Of course a simple working knife could slit anybody's throat.

So I think it would depend on the leadership of the ship as to what and where larger weapons would be kept. Maybe not necessarily locked up, but certianly out of the elements.

I have a hard time imagining a guy working up in the rigging with the sails fully armed with guns and swords. I think a reality check here is needed.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Patrick, good point. I forgot about that.

I tend to stay away from assumption, however I'm gonna have to back you up on the rack on a bulkhead thing. Just pure common sense reasoning. What other way is there really if they weren't locked in a cabin? And as you sand others have said, the pirate articles state that they were individually responsible for maintaining their weapons. 2+2=4 where I stand.

Capt. Bo

[AllByMeOnesies]

My inclination would be that the stowage of small arms on pirate ships would vary by captain/ship. Lots of drunkenness among pirates, and I can't see "officers" encouraging drunks to carry weapons about.

However, having said that, there are multiple references in Defoe's book about men being awarded the best pistol, etc. for things like sighting a ship first while on lookout or boarding a prize first, etc. So that would lend credance to the belief that weapons were personal items.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Another thought with that in mind... Although the arms were possibly kept by individuals and readily accessable, and as noted by "Onesies" above, the drunkenness could lead to violence or mutiny etc.- Would it be possible that the Captain would have had the powder and shot kept under lock from the crew?

Just a thought.... Capt. Bo

[Daniel]

Another thought with that in mind... Although the arms were possibly kept by individuals and readily accessable, and as noted by "Onesies" above, the drunkenness could lead to violence or mutiny etc.- Would it be possible that the Captain would have had the powder and shot kept under lock from the crew?

Just a thought.... Capt. Bo

The only hint I have about that is that Kidd's Adventure Galley did have a separate powder magazine. My book doesn't say whether it was locked. But it would make sense, given that fire was one of the constant fears of maritime life.

[Cap'n Redbeard]

Avast me hearties! I found an interesting passage ...

"Though the entire crew fought as well as sailed, you would not carry a weapon since most of the important weapons are stored in the ship. Although a belaying pin was an important tool that would be left aboard ship, we will allow you to carry one to further mark you as a sailor. This is a theatrical allowance and is not historically correct.

Those of you who intend to carry weapons, other than your working knives, should make appropriate choices. Pikes, halberds, longarms, and swords would have been in the ship's stores and not privately owned and maintained. Considering the danger of mutiny the same may have applied to daggers, falchions, and pistols. In the later periods there were kept in the captain's custody the length of the voyage. Certain kinds of weapons, such as rapiers and crossbows, were probably left behind.

The weapons carried on the ship would have been unusual in many ways. The pikes would have been "half-pikes," six to nine feet long, and instead of having a sharp steel buttcap, would end in a blunt knob of wood. There is evidence that Drake favored arrows fitted with tamkins (a sort of wad halfway down the shaft) as musket projectiles. While a few of the officers may have carried rapiers, falchions would have been far better suited to the crowded pell-mell combat that boarding usually involved."

[Capn_Enigma]

The only hint I have about that is that Kidd's Adventure Galley did have a separate powder magazine.

Bad example. When she set sail from New York, "Adventure Galley" was a commissioned privateer, not a pirate ship. A privateer is a vessel with a paramilitary hierarchy and crew management. As with every man- o- war, it was perfectly natural that weapons were kept under lock and key, inaccessible to sailors.

[Patrick Hand]

"Adventure Galley" was a commissioned privateer, not a pirate ship.

But once it went Pyrate, did they continue to keep the weapons locked up?

Merchant and Naval ship's had the weapons accessible, but locked up, to prevent mutiny. But aboard a Pyrate ship, I still don't think they would have locked the weapons.

I haven't finished reading "Expedition Whydah" (well I'm maybe 1/3 the way through, they just haven't gotten to the artifacts yet.)

The Whydah starts out as a slave ship, so there would be weapons aboard, but not accessible to the Human cargo. And more than likely, locked up from the crew. But when Sam Bellamy gets it, did he keep the weapons locked up away from his crew of Pyrates?

Maybe when I get to the part in the book about where they find everything, it might give a clue.

I'm still arguing that aboard a Pyrate ship, the crew has access to the weapons.

Now if it turns out that I'm wrong, won't it change some of our ideas about "Pyrate Democracy?" It would be difficult to vote a captain "out" when he and his cronies had the key to the weapons.

[Cap'n Redbeard]

Further support...

"The Marlinespike (or Marlingspike)

The marlinespike was really more of a tool than a weapon. It was quite similar to an ice pick. It has a round wooden handle a round blade with a sharp point. It was used to separate strands in marlines. Marlines are two lines of tarred rope that are loosely wrapped together in a left hand turn.

So much for the intended purpose. The marlinespikes were also used as anchors for lines and just about every thing that involved securing lines. They were also one of the few weapons that a mutinous crew could easily get their hands on.

Most Captains locked weapons away unless a battle was pending for fear of armed mutinies. However such things as the marlinespike had to remain available to the crew in order for the ship to function. For this reason the marlinespike became the favored weapon of mutineers.

I also found:

"Gully and other Knives

A gully is simply a big knife. It was not usually a fighting knife but could be used as such in a pinch. Some gully's were folding knifes but for the most part they were similar to the knife you would find in your kitchen. (The folding knifes were smaller.) In any case, the gully was another tool that was commonplace among sailors and were quite often used in mutinies simply because nothing else could be had. Today, the Gully would be replaced by such knives as a Buck Knife or Swiss Army pocket knife. "

To Patrick Hand: This just goes to show that mutiny was pretty easy, especially when the captain is outnumbered.

Also, where i underlined tells us that the intelligent captains locked away the weapons unless in a battle. Now obviously this source might be wrong, but it seems solid. Pirate Weapons

[Rumba Rue]

Well as a female wench I carry my belaying pin as a weapon, not a dildo.

[blackjohn]

I haven't finished reading "Expedition Whydah" (well I'm maybe 1/3 the way through, they just haven't gotten to the artifacts yet.)

The Whydah starts out as a slave ship, so there would be weapons aboard, but not accessible to the Human cargo. And more than likely, locked up from the crew. But when Sam Bellamy gets it, did he keep the weapons locked up away from his crew of Pyrates?

Maybe when I get to the part in the book about where they find everything, it might give a clue.

That's why I asked the Whydah archaeologist. See my post above. He told me there was no pattern to weapon distribution. No pattern suggests to me one of two things. Weapons were kept wherever one wanted. Or the giant washing machine that was the Whydah in the storm that sank her churned the weapons about willy-nilly.