dasNdanger Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Not sure if this is where I ask...but here goes... okie dokie - I have a replica (ACK!! ) flintlock pistol (would have a real one if they weren't so danged 'spensive). So, in an attempt to make my fantasy toy seem as authentic as possible, I have a few accessories to go along with it, and a few ideas of what I might need to add. However, I'm not sure when the items came into popular use, nor am I certain of the style of these items for the time period in question (either during the Elizabethan times for the PA Ren Faire, or the later Golden Age of piracy for other events). First, I understand that the true flintlock came into origin between these two time periods, correct (early to mid-1600's)?? Before the flintlock were the matchlock and wheel lock...so, which would have been used during Elizabethan times??? And what sort of gadgets would have been necessary for such a weapon? Are there replicas of these available? Second, if the flintlock was in common use during the GAoP, then what sort of gadgets would have been necessary for it?? I'll make a list, and please delete/add/correct what I have here through your posts, and give descriptions of what would be an authentic style for such items. Thanks very much!! extra flints shot shot mold paper cartridge (papers, wooden mandrel for forming - or did this come later and would such be used for musket only, or for pistols, too?) black powder (or good imitation for safety regulations at faires) wadding (yes - no - something like oakum - something else?) oil or grease? (what sort of oil/grease? what sort of flask/bottle/container?) powder horn powder flask (I have both horn and flask, but my flask is small so I use it for something else - would these items be within either time period, or later) patch box & patches (was this just for muskets [to keep the ball from rolling out], or pistols, too, and would it have been used during the time period in question) pick and whisk (again - when did such come into use, were they used to maintain pistols as well muskets, and what style would they have been if they were in use during the period in question.) Okay - that's all I can think of off the top of my head, if there is anything I missed, please lemme know! And yes, I am aware that a pistol was not always the most practical weapon - fire and toss and grab yer sword was probably the way to go in the heat of battle. But I would like to know what an OCD pirate with a fixation on his pistol would have had on hand to use and maintain it. das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 hmmm..... make sure you get your self a good back pack to carry all that stuff. I recommend this one! It all depends das... are your going on an expedition or are you getting ready to board and attack a vessel. If you were a land based soldier on campaign you might need all that stuff but if you are getting ready for a boarding party, you would not have time to use that stuff. I would imagine that you brought just your pistol/s and your cutlass-belaying pin-barding axe and that is it. It would take too long to reload on a hostile ship so you shoot it and then move on to your other weapon. I don't think that a pirate would just be fixated on the pistol... I would imagine that all the maintainence stuff would be back in the sailors "locker" or sea bag and not get seen until it was time to clean it. just my guess.... Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 Well, this is what I'm guessing, too - that most of this would be left behind during a boarding raid - like I said, fire, toss, and grab yer sword. I tried to think of every possible 'accessory' for a pistol and I am not suggesting that all of these items would be carted around on one's person. But what I want to know is if they would have been used at all during that time, and if so, in what form? Would they have been back on the ship, in a trunk? Would they have been only in possession of whoever was in charge of firearms, or would each man have his own 'kit'? Heck, for that matter - how many men would have even HAD a pistol in the first place?? As far as toting the stuff around, I would think that for a quickie raid it would just be a pistol or two...no time to reload. However, in the context of being 'filibusters', pirates often engaged in land action that took them away from their ship for days or weeks while they ransacked villages and followed the 'wealth' as it fled inland. This being the case, and considering that actual attacks may have been hours, even days apart, there would be plenty of time to maintain and reload a pistol. If so - would any of these items be used?? I have seem re-enactors (Rev. War navy) with powder horns for their muskets - so, would such be needed for a pistol if one was away on a land attack? Would they have been in use in either the Elizabethan age, or the GAoP? Pick and whisk is common for Rev. War reenactors, as well, as are the paper cartridges. But these may all be elements that were added later, or more specifically for muskets, and not necessarily used for pistols. I've done a little research, but most of the informantion I find is for either the Revolutionary period, or Civil War. Not too much information before that... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Seems you have done your reasearch. I had not thought much about it though until you asked your question.... I am sort of looking forward to seeing what post show up because I would like to know too. As you said, just about everything realated that is easy to google is for War of Independence or F&I.. Ok gun experts.... what "stuff" do we need to go with it? GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsair2k3 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 [snipped]I have a few accessories to go along with it, and a few ideas of what I might need to add. [snipped] Note: My comments apply strictly to the period c.1690-1725. [snipped] if the flintlock was in common use during the GAoP, then what sort of gadgets would have been necessary for it?? I'll make a list, and please delete/add/correct what I have here through your posts, and give descriptions of what would be an authentic style for such items. Thanks very much!! extra flints Nice to have--not need to have. If you were a frontiersman, it'd be a different story. But a pirate is part of a crew and crews have "community property" If you're on a land raid--a rare thing in the Golden Age--then yes, by all means. shot -I am inclined to think that premade cartridges in a shot pouch would be a lot likelier to match actual practice shot mold -Don't bother with this. It's my personal [and irrevoable] opinion that pirates didn't mold their own shot much. paper cartridge (papers, wooden mandrel for forming - or did this come later and would such be used for musket only, or for pistols, too?) -Cartridges were definitely used for both muskets and pistols. black powder (or good imitation for safety regulations at faires) -I am inclined to think that gunpowder was regarded as community property and that pirates were not in the habit of carrying personal supplies of it. wadding (yes - no - something like oakum - something else?) -Paper was used as wadding in some of the small arms remnants recovered from the Whydah. oil or grease? (what sort of oil/grease? what sort of flask/bottle/container?) -"Community property"--don't bother. powder horn -If it were me, I'd substitute a cartouche box for the powder horn and the flask. powder flask (I have both horn and flask, but my flask is small so I use it for something else - would these items be within either time period, or later) patch box & patches (was this just for muskets [to keep the ball from rolling out], or pistols, too, and would it have been used during the time period in question) -I'd skip the patch box Cloth wadding/patches increase range and accuracy for long arms, but it's my understanding that max effective pistol range was 20-25 yards. pick -definitely a must-have. Dunno about the whisk. Definitely add a worm. And your pistol is already fitted with the ramrod, yes? [snipped] I am aware that a pistol was not always the most practical weapon - fire and toss and grab yer sword was probably the way to go in the heat of battle. -Don't go too far in disparaging them. I rather suspect that one could find a lot more mentions of pistols than muskets among pirates. You don't really need the range in a shipboard combat, and they're a lot more intimidating [to me anyway] than a crappy sword. The Corsair Greetings, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Since I actually shoot my pistols and muskets, here is what I take to a muster where I'll be firing. Small flask for priming powder Larger flask or horn for main powder Whisk and pick spare flints small turnscrew and handforged pliers copper oil bottle tow worm and tow for cleaning ball screw for removing stuck balls linen rag The above is for blank firing. For a live shoot I'll add: Ball for the weapons I'll be shooting Swan shot small shot (.30 cal) Except for the flasks, all this goes in the cartridge box on the belt. There are a couple of period woodcuts showing pirates with belly boxes, so I see no problem with this. There is other evidence that pirates carried belly boxes. In the powder box I'll keep papers for making cartridge, a pair of 'legs' for removing stuck rammers, small brass funnel for filling the flasks, and modern screwdriver and borelight. I don't bother with a mandrel, I wrap cartridge on the end of the rammer. I generally use a large leaf or a bit of grass for wadding. If I'm on ship, then I'll use a bit of paper. Would all this be carried at all times? I don't know. I know that all this takes up relatively little room and there are plenty of documents showing soldiers and the like would carry this gear. On the other hand, there are the accounts of pirates carrying mutiple pistols so they didn't have to reload. Personal preference? Weapons professionals vs armed thugs? Availability of kit? All these and more besides are variables that would affect the answer. Since I can document that soldiers would carry such things, I have no problem justifying other weapons professionals carrying them. I also find it easier to keep everything in one place so I don't have to search for things or repack for every event. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Royaliste Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 As for horns and flasks, from my deck carronades to a boot pistol, it all takes powder and accessories.......How much 'o it that goes with at the time of a boardin', well, that would have been a matter of preference.....Edged weapons were primary weapons,not pistols......Pikes req'd no powder at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 *head spins* Wow, you guys are great. Okay - MORE questions.... If I take oil - what kind?? I have a small brass flask I could use for it - would that be okay, or should it be copper? I have a whisk and pick that I picked up at a Revolutionary War re-enactment - brass pick chained to a small horse-hair brush...would that style be appropriate?? I have seen some picks with bone or ivory handles, carved or possibly scrimshaw...with a 'wire' or thin rod stuck in it. Would something like that be more appropriate? It would be easy enough for me to make since I've done both carving and scrimshaw before. I know what a worm is, but what would one make it out of? What would be the average finished length? Where does one get tow these days?? (I might wait for the next reenactment because they always have worms, and I suspect tow, too - or I could just check the sutler's sites) I have spare fiints, some shot (but in Jersey it's considered ammo and hard to get unless I beg someone at an event for it), powder horn, cartridge papers and mandrel, and a leather priming flask I just found...wonder how I missed that - so it looks like I only need the worm, pliers (will look around for them) and turnscrew (do you have a picture of a period turnscrew - I have some antique tools, though I doubt anything small enough) and ball screw. Not too much to add, except for a proper cartridge box (I've seen rather large ones - about the size of a pop-up tissue box - or am I confusing it with the powder box?? If I am not firing the pistol (which I won't be anytime soon), I really wouldn't need the borelight, modern driver and the like, correct? And what about powder - can't take the real stuff into faires - what could I use as a good substitute?? Wow - getting excited about this - this is SO much more fun than talking about clothing!! (In real life I prefer hardware stores to Macy's, so this stuff is right up my alley!!) Thanks aqain, everyone!! das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 LOL! Yes this is good info. One question das - with all the effort you're putting into getting an accurate fake gun kit together, why not just get the real flintlock/doglock and have at it? You're 95% there anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 Oooo!! Would LOVE too - in fact, had the opportunity to buy a real one (it was mounted, not sure the seller realized it was a working flintlock) for about $125.00 - I don't think it was 'old', but can't be sure. I was SO tempted...but decided against it because, at the time, that $125.00 was too precious, NOW I'm kicking myself (of course, it was rather large...and would have been a #%$&@ to cart around shoved down me drawers). Perhaps someday I will. I do have concerns about actually having 'firearms' in the house, since I'm not used to it (besides that .22 rifle that my folks had stashed away in the utility room - the Rat Killer, we called it...) For now, I'm quite happy having all the 'authentic' fake gadgets...I might graduate up to something more impressive later on. Of course, I have an entire shaving kit even though I don't have a beard...so... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarborMaster Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Shouldnt be too much of a problem having a flintlock around the house ?., If its not loaded you cant go "Postal"...., Say., dont move..., I need some time before I frag ya? Should be Really Safe to have a lock., you know that. I am not Lost .,I am Exploring. "If you give a man a fire, he will be warm for a night, if you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maddox Roberts Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 A few years ago I bought a flint-and-steel fire kit from Jas. Townsend & Son and they sent a big hank of tow along with it. You might inquire there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 I got a bigazz bag of tow from Townsend - nice stuff. Their strikers aren't the hottest though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 7, 2005 Author Share Posted February 7, 2005 Thanks everyone!! I'll look into Townsend - thnnks for the lead. At least I have a few months yet to get things together, and a lot I have or can make. I'll let ya know how I make out!! das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Royaliste Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Not that fire-starting accessories have much to do with 'pistols'(the thread title, methinks). but...without great difference to Townsend, if you want a good steel for flint, this forge is hard to beat..Fine forging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 7, 2005 Author Share Posted February 7, 2005 GGGGGGUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!! You HAD to gimme that link, didn't ya... *drools over primative metal thingys* I am such a ...how do I put this... a 'wood, metal, pottery and stone whore' it's not funny. China and crystal and shiny things just don't impress me - THIS is the sort of stuff I love. I went crazy last year at a Revolutionary re-enactment, buying up all sorts of forged goodies - but they don't come close to these. I prefer the 'rustic' look of this work...it's very fine indeed. I do have a steel - not sure how good it is - it's just a basic striker the sutlers offer at these events and I STILL haven't gotten a good spark (mind you - I practice like - two minutes - then get distracted and move onto something else). I REALLY need to stick with it - and get more flint and a longer attention span!. Funny - this brings back memories of my teenage years. When all the other girls were dating and fussing over makeup - I was back in the woods with my dog after a snowfall, building fires (I cheated and used matches ) under an old cedar that doubled as a 'fort', roasting hotdogs and pretending it was rabbit! LOL - I was so pathetic. Of course, I'm not much better now - only now I'm nestled in the 'ship room', filled with old oak barrels and cannon balls, belaying pins and lanterns, manila cordage and blocks, and a whole bunch of other stuff lacking the delicacy usually associated with the fairer sex. My poor hubby - when we were first married he complained that I had a couple lacy pillows in the living room - now he's complaining that I have too many cannon balls!! Men - just can't make 'em happy... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Misson Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 I was just entering notes from Dampier and I came across this which might interest those of your with Cartouche boxes (spelling preserved from Dampier's text): “[1685] …[Captain Townley] put ashoar on a sandy Bay, but overset all his Canoas: He had one Man drowned, and several lost their Arms, and some of them that had not waxt up their Cartage or Catouche Boxes, wet all their Powder.” (Dampier, p. 162) “We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.” –Carlos Casteneda "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." — Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Interesting indeed. "waxt" as into didn't seal with pitch I'm presuming? Curious though... from the recent documentary of the Whydah... their claim to long silk ribbons used as tying to pistols and draping around their neck. Be this backed up with documentation? Or is this more or less an educated guess? ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 What is funny about this... Is when I first saw images of the Whydah Shot box, I had wondered if it was sealed in wax because of the colouring of the leather. This is the first peice of textual evidence I have seen to support that guess. https://pyracy.com/forums/index.php?showtop...=9760&hl=whydah My original post is about three quarters if the way down the page. As for the silk ribbon thing, I think there is textual evidence to support that. If you do a search through Twill for pistol carriage or some similar words, you will find the old thread with that information and the references. Wish I could be of more help there, but I don't remember that thread off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Tis ok, Mr Bagley. Understandable. Still seeking that thread out. Thank ye. ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Misson Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 This is part of the reason I post stuff that sounds interesting to me. Probably hundreds of people who would be interested in that have read Dampier's text, but they weren't looking for it at the time. And you just can't retain everything. (I learned this from the interest in the tent construction information from Rogers' text.) “We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.” –Carlos Casteneda "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." — Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Amen to th' retension bit, Mission. M' poor mind be not t'what it was. Infact, a good Doctor mentioned to me t' get m' head checked out literially. Now, that DOES bother me. So... books galore for m'self and others to use... aye, tis a wonderful thing. I'd imagine the box 'll be good for other items, too, if one hasn't a haversack. Aye? ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 My poor hubby - when we were first married he complained that I had a couple lacy pillows in the living room - now he's complaining that I have too many cannon balls!!das Great Jesu' on a floating breadbox, you mean to say you have more balls than your husband???? Dances for nickels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 For anyone interested in Mediterranean or African pirates, this is listed as an Italian pistol circa 1700 http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hh...&db=kat53_s.txt The barrel is engraved '1631', roughly .70 caliber and the pistol's overall length is 23" long! (73cm) Dances for nickels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 That is waaay cool. Don't see many exposed mainsprings. the boxed in frizzen spring is a different thing as well. I cannot beleive the detailed carving on that mainspring where it meets the cock. I'd really like to see the sear and other internal parts to see how it works all the way through. Italian art work is always above and beyond huh? Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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