TalesOfTheSevenSeas Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 SEX IN THE AGE OF SAIL *Gasp!!* Be it true?!! Historians, tell me yer opinions on this arrrrticle, which makes claims about the unofficial "positions" of cabin boys and more... -Claire "Poison Quill" Warren Pyrate Mum of Tales of the Seven Seas www.talesofthesevenseas.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saber Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Arrrrrrrr me Darlin!!! I"m all for skipping the cabin boy and taking care of business with me one and only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalesOfTheSevenSeas Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 Lucky fer ye, that ye live in th' modern day and be sailin' with a Cap'n who let's (and encourages) "pyrettes" aboard!! -Claire "Poison Quill" Warren Pyrate Mum of Tales of the Seven Seas www.talesofthesevenseas.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Salem Bob' Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 SEX IN THE AGE OF SAIL*Gasp!!* Be it true?!! Historians, tell me yer opinions on this arrrrticle, which makes claims about the unofficial "positions" of cabin boys and more... That is a pretty fluffy article, long on speculation and short on documentation to the point of being nearly entirely absent. I particularly like the arrant nonsense "homosexuality must have been prevelant die to the numbers of rules against it". Sounds good on the surface, but taking a deeper look I believe fewer than a dozen cases of Sodomy are publicly recorded by Admiralty records over the course of the 18th century, with a stunningly high percentage of hangings meted out to the convicted parties (I am unaware of a case where a charge was brought forward without conviction). You stood a greater chance of being hanged for said act than for desertion. The raw data is there to prove the case. For a much better look into sexuality and the sailor, try David Cordingly's "Women Sailors and Sailors Women" (I hope I have that title right - I know I have the author correct). He covers everything from female sailors, to dockside prostitutes, sailors wives, homosexuality, ect. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), the article you linked to is fluff and drivel, a reporters view after a brief skim of a range of material, rather than a well documented study. I think you would get a kick out of the Cordingly book, and he very solidly documents cases of women at sea, functioning as everything from captain of the foretop on an English man of war, to taking over as fully functioning captains when their husbands were rendered incapable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Bess Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 SEX IN THE AGE OF SAIL*Gasp!!* Be it true?!! What?? Who had sex with an aged sail???................ Well, you may not realize it but your looking at the remains of what was once a very handsome woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartooth Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 What??Who had sex with an aged sail???................ Sorry ....... I'll clean it up. Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Bob. It was a VERY fluffy article ... not well researched or written. One cannot report on straight hypothesis and conjecture. Wartooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalesOfTheSevenSeas Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 Yeah I noted that he only mentioned floggings etc as punishment for sodomy, but had completely missed one of the juciest bits of documentation, which is reprinted in the Cordingly book you mentioned, "Women Sailors and Sailor's Women" Cordingly includes a trial transcript in which a detailed account is given of two sailors who are accused of sodomy. The language is so graphic, I couldn't even quote it here (I didn't even know they had those slang words in the 18th century!) and both of them were hung from the ship's yardarm. There is a book Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth-Century Caribbean which I can't say that I've read, but that is supposed to be a good source on this subject. I too got the distinct impression that this article was written by someone looking for a sensational article, rather than someone who had spent much time researching nautical subjects. But I thought it would be interesting to see what comments our pirates had on it. (LOL, still chuckling over the visual image inspired by Bess' comment!!) -Claire "Poison Quill" Warren Pyrate Mum of Tales of the Seven Seas www.talesofthesevenseas.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I was drunk The Sail didn't LOOK that old I was really, really drunk Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 ...Good one Zorg...I'm still laugh'n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 (edited) I agree with Salem Bob & Wartooth. Be leery of articles that don't site sources and primary sources at that. Sodomy & the Pirate Tradition is full of supposition. Some years back there was a scholar here who was researching homosexuality and pirates. He gave a brown bag talk on it. All the while he was talking had to supress a giggle couse all I could think about was Capt Ned and the Raging Queen from SNL. John Beluchi in a hot pink and lime green satin pirate outfit! His sepculation was that the vast majority of pirates were gay. Personally think it was a mixture of wishful thinking and his fantasy life. He later published his research as Rum, sodomy, and the lash : piracy, sexuality, and masculine identity [aka How I Spent My Weekend] / Hans Turley. There were gay pirates and some did form lasting unions. I have never heard of the term matelots before. Great consort yes in Captian Kidd and the War Against the Pirates. It was used to refer to the partner of Capt. Culliford who was the man who was the bane of Kidd's existance. Took off with half his crew. :) There is evidence that pirates were more tolerent of homosexual behavior but then pirates were tolreent about any non-mainstream behavior or lifestyle. They were afterall pirates! :) Edited March 25, 2004 by Red Maria Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalesOfTheSevenSeas Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 I am NOT going to make any jokes about using a "sailor's palm" next time... I swear I won't!!!!!!!! -Claire "Poison Quill" Warren Pyrate Mum of Tales of the Seven Seas www.talesofthesevenseas.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalesOfTheSevenSeas Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 Red Maria, I will have to dig through my books and find out where I read about matelots. I think it was in Cordingly's book but I can't say for sure. As I recall there was no indication that this was a homosexual relationship, but more along the line of the type of deep trust and reliance upon each other than develops between men on the battlefield. It was a tough life and you were better off if you had someone you knew you could trust with your life and who would look out for you. -Claire "Poison Quill" Warren Pyrate Mum of Tales of the Seven Seas www.talesofthesevenseas.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I am NOT going to make any jokes about using a "sailor's palm" next time... I swear I won't!!!!!!!! Oh, don't be silly.... 'COURSE you will Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Bess Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I was drunkThe Sail didn't LOOK that old I was really, really drunk Ahhhhhhhhhhh.... good lad! Well, you may not realize it but your looking at the remains of what was once a very handsome woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Matelot is a British navy term for sailors. Generally refers to non-officers . Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Matelot is a British navy term for sailors. Generally refers to non-officers .Hawkyns Maybe that's why I never heard used for same sex partners either sailor or pirate. That was one poorly written article. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalesOfTheSevenSeas Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 Apparently it is "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rivers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean" p. 120-130 that describes the term "matelots" as bond between sailors that was sexual. When I get home tonight, I'll check in my Wodsworth Dictionary of Pirates. I think that is where I saw matloteage described as a special bonding or friendship between two sailors that did not imply a physical relationship. Skimming around on the web, it seems to have no further meaning beyond a term for a sailor. I'll see what I can dig up tonight. I wonder if it is one of those words that began as just another word for sailor and had an additional meaning evolve later? Just making guesses on that. Additionally, I did find also that it's a French word and is pronounced "mat-low". I tell ya... somtimes those nautical terms are enough to drive you batty! Boatswain is pronounced "Bosun" and forecastle is pronounced "foc'sl" -Claire "Poison Quill" Warren Pyrate Mum of Tales of the Seven Seas www.talesofthesevenseas.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Frye Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 My handy online Merriam-Webster reveals: Main Entry: mate·lot Pronunciation: 'mat-"lO, 'ma-t&- Function: noun Etymology: French, from Middle French, from Middle Dutch mattenoot, literally, bedmate British : SAILOR However, American Heritage Dictionary ... has a different take: SYLLABICATION: mat·e·lote PRONUNCIATION: mtl-t, mä-t-lt NOUN: A fish stew that is cooked in a wine sauce. ETYMOLOGY: French, from matelot, sailor, from Old French matenot, sailor, bunkmate, possibly from Middle Dutch mattenoot ( perhaps from matte, bed, from Late Latin matta; see mat1 + noot, fellow) or from Old Norse mötunautr, messmate ( mata, food, mess + nautr, companion). (A couple of the pronunciation symbols didn't make it through on that last post, BTW.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I went to the OED and found two spelling slightly different meanings. Matelot [Fr sailor cf matlo (w)] 1. A salilor Naut salng 2. Applied to a shade of blue Matelote 1. A dish of fish with a sause of wine, onions and other seasonings ... 2. Old sailor's dance in duple rythm, similar to a hornpipe No mention of intimate relations between men in the OED. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Apparently it is "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rivers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean" p. 120-130 that describes the term "matelots" as bond between sailors that was sexual. There isn't a copy of Burg book "Sodomy & the Pirate Tradition" in the library. That should be very telling as to the level of scholarship the book has. Claire does Burg say where he got this bit of information? Is there a footnote or endnote? If yes what is the source sited? Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Penny Hawkings Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I was drunkThe Sail didn't LOOK that old I was really, really drunk ...I was DEAD at th' time! .....I was on th' MOON! With Steve! (an' if ye get that, more power to ye!) "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Hate me because I am robbing you, tossing you overboard, and stealing your ship!" -the only thing more dangerous than her.. is her needle- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pyrate Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 ...I was DEAD at th' time!.....I was on th' MOON! With Steve! And if'n ye broke the rules on the ship, ye'd be asked... Tea and cake or death?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Penny Hawkings Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ...I was DEAD at th' time!.....I was on th' MOON! With Steve! And if'n ye broke the rules on the ship, ye'd be asked... Tea and cake or death?!? "Death! Er.. CAKE!" "You said death first! Aaaah!" "Well, I meant cake!" "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Hate me because I am robbing you, tossing you overboard, and stealing your ship!" -the only thing more dangerous than her.. is her needle- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastie04 Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Let THEM eat cake... She was bigger and faster when under full sail With a gale on the beam and the seas o'er the rail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PYRATE Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Let THEM eat cake... O.K. then, death by eatin' cake!......... Stand Down, and ye may just live... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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