Swashbuckler 1700

Some interesting pictures.

238 posts in this topic

Well speaking for myself, what I was seeing was a basic wide brimmed circular hat pinned up at the front and back.

Maybe the artist was just rubbish at perspective and they are tricorns ;)

The hat shown in this picture above looks to me a lot like the one that was featured in the Captain Kidd exhibit:

27_1683.jpg

_52739039_82a.jpg

Those are practically tricones especially latter one. Actually what is the line that hat need to cross to come tricorn. To me it is 3 side turned up and that is what the latter hat looks like. While later hats were more compact to me hats like these are tricones as much as the classic style....

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

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Unlike Foxe I see Martel's hat also tricorn and not brim hat. I feel that all are triconrs but admiral's hat can be tricorn backwards or some kind of hybrid hat so to speak which bears a lot of resemblance to tricons.....

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There is a paragraph in the 1729 edition of the spectator that seemed to say that the hats the navy were using were long out of date:

"We hear from good authority, that it is the intention of the Admiralty to revise the present regulation for the uniform of the Royal Navy, with the view of reducing the costly expenditure of the junior officers. It is said that epaulettes are to be altogether abolished, and it is a question whether the antiquated cocked-hat will be retained for use on board ship.— United Service Gazette. . "

That date must be wrong, I'd guess at 1829. There were two papers called The Spectator, the first ran in 1711-1712 and 1714, the second was founded in 1828. I'm also 99% certain that the United Service Gazette was not published as early as 1729. There was no Royal Navy uniform regulation until 1748, and it did include epaulettes until the end of the 18th century.

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Okay this is just my thoughts on the hats on the woodcuts;

Tricorns/Cocked Hats are just a bitch to draw from certain angles and even more of a bugger to carve =o), colour/shading helps makes perspective work.

But...

nicolasdelargilliere_labellestrasbourgeoise.jpg La Belle Strasbourgeoise by Nicolas De Largilliere, 1703

la-belle-strasbourgeoise.jpg

Outfit in Strasbourg Museum

Definately a athwarts bicorn =o/

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Granted, but that's still nothing like what's shown in the depictions above. It's also on a person of the female persuasion.

Do you have any thoughts on the possibility of those hats depicted being bicorns in the sense that we usually understand the word?

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Other tricones from the Admiral's artist

00065.jpg

00061.jpg

00063.jpg

00015.jpg

00101.jpg

00039.jpg

00053.jpg

00037.jpg

00059.jpg

00069.jpg

00087.jpg

This is also hat that we could debate about

00103.jpg

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Granted, but that's still nothing like what's shown in the depictions above. It's also on a person of the female persuasion.

Do you have any thoughts on the possibility of those hats depicted being bicorns in the sense that we usually understand the word?

I think that he said that he see those as tricons and not bicorns. In my post with other images from same maker there we can see tricorns drawn in many different way....

Pod you seems to be in wrong century today ;)

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Granted, but that's still nothing like what's shown in the depictions above. It's also on a person of the female persuasion.

Do you have any thoughts on the possibility of those hats depicted being bicorns in the sense that we usually understand the word?

If the lady is wearing Riding Habit then there's a chance it's a masculine style of hat .....

I really hate giving a definative when it concerns historical styles but if you mean like this folding 'Chapeau Bras'

r7604.jpg

Or this rigid 'Bicorne'

OFFa1.jpg

Prob'ly not (Never say never though)

Cocked hats with a short high front cock and fantail like matey on the left

5495211250_dcbd999a34_z.jpg

Is a poss, although more common towards the end of the 18thC it's just another way of cocking a hat and ent far off

this one wot SB1700 nailed up

00039.jpg

There's always 'regional styles' to take into consideration, Spanish officers hat ent a million miles from the modern Spanish Plod dress hats.

Tricornio_Guardia_Civil_(Gran_Gala).jpg

All that plus artistic licence/interpretation and the limitations/skill of the artist aside my vote is for badly drawn cocked hat.

Edited by Grymm

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[

All that plus artistic licence/interpretation and the limitations/skill of the artist aside my vote is for badly drawn cocked hat.

My vote goes to the badly drawn cocked hat. Don Maitz, who is a good friend of mine and a very accomplished pirate artist tells me that a tricorne hat is one of the most difficult things to draw and have it come out looking right.

>>>> Cascabel

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[

All that plus artistic licence/interpretation and the limitations/skill of the artist aside my vote is for badly drawn cocked hat.

My vote goes to the badly drawn cocked hat. Don Maitz, who is a good friend of mine and a very accomplished pirate artist tells me that a tricorne hat is one of the most difficult things to draw and have it come out looking right.

>>>> Cascabel

I have draw few also and they are indeed hard to make.... ;)

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Granted, but that's still nothing like what's shown in the depictions above. It's also on a person of the female persuasion.

Do you have any thoughts on the possibility of those hats depicted being bicorns in the sense that we usually understand the word?

If the lady is wearing Riding Habit then there's a chance it's a masculine style of hat .....

I really hate giving a definative when it concerns historical styles but if you mean like this folding 'Chapeau Bras'

r7604.jpg

Or this rigid 'Bicorne'

OFFa1.jpg

Prob'ly not (Never say never though)

Cocked hats with a short high front cock and fantail like matey on the left

5495211250_dcbd999a34_z.jpg

Is a poss, although more common towards the end of the 18thC it's just another way of cocking a hat and ent far off

this one wot SB1700 nailed up

00039.jpg

There's always 'regional styles' to take into consideration, Spanish officers hat ent a million miles from the modern Spanish Plod dress hats.

Tricornio_Guardia_Civil_(Gran_Gala).jpg

All that plus artistic licence/interpretation and the limitations/skill of the artist aside my vote is for badly drawn cocked hat.

Could you say when bicornes came in the use?

I have hunger for dates of those hats....

To point out than there were many different hat styles here in one picture. This hat is just like tricorn but brim is not turned up on the backside.

6971366399_f7fa3531ba_z.jpg

Here is other copy of that admiral and I still see that admiral hat as tricon that is backwards.

LuykenEnglishAdmiral1699.jpg

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

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BTW here some cavarly men use tricones backwards see (from left to right) III man and V man.... and date is 1704....

15_1704.jpg

Now just stuff

Here is some interesting pictures

tumblr_lwrgo0FR4U1qgfl6zo1_500.jpg

Alexis Grimou [1678 - 1733] - Young Man Playing a Recorder

William_Hiseland.jpg

Famous really old soldier Thomas Hiseland probaply when he was a Chelsea pensioner circa 1730(?)

Somebody has nice picture gallery of late 17th century clothing on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44890094@N08/sets/72157622836818796/with/4272966919/

V3300014-Edmond_Halley_s_diving_bell_of_1716-SPL.jpg

Edmond Halley's diving bell of 1716

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

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There is a paragraph in the 1729 edition of the spectator that seemed to say that the hats the navy were using were long out of date:

"We hear from good authority, that it is the intention of the Admiralty to revise the present regulation for the uniform of the Royal Navy, with the view of reducing the costly expenditure of the junior officers. It is said that epaulettes are to be altogether abolished, and it is a question whether the antiquated cocked-hat will be retained for use on board ship.— United Service Gazette. . "

That date must be wrong, I'd guess at 1829. There were two papers called The Spectator, the first ran in 1711-1712 and 1714, the second was founded in 1828. I'm also 99% certain that the United Service Gazette was not published as early as 1729. There was no Royal Navy uniform regulation until 1748, and it did include epaulettes until the end of the 18th century.

You aren't wrong. Google books had it listed as the 1729 edition but the front page (which stupidly I didnt check) has the date 1850 on it.

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To sum up the hat conversation here I think that most of us think that it is tricorn/ cocked hat in that admiral picture. And it is likely backwards since the point seems to be on back.

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Makes me laugh, the end of an evening of serious boozing at One's club =o)

a link coz the board doesn't support the image code

http://resolver.kb.n...ge&size=largest

Drunk bloke copping a feel, slanging match at the taxi rank.......

What is the date of that image. It seems to be from 1700-1740s since there are so long periwigs....

sad to one book maker that those two men are not pirates :P

back to that perpetual Admiral's hat issue

I think only one (Pod) thinks that admiral's hat as bicorn ( no problem with that. there is need for different opinions and visions so I am not teasing here ;) ) and most other think it as tricorn and at least me and Foxe that is backwards.

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It's more Troost, so Netherlands 1730s.

Now for something completely different, see Missy's hat? Well look closely at the lefthand side

z8.jpg

Summat holding the brim up, a string or twisted straw cordage methinks and before you go HAHA straw tricorn.....It's 1630s Spanish =op

Loving the bag too, Mem Sahib picked up a virtually identical bag from Camden Market about 6-7years ago, It'After years of service itneeded some serious patching and since been relegated to peg bag for the laundry.

Edited by Grymm

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back to that perpetual Admiral's hat issue

I think only one (Pod) thinks that admiral's hat as bicorn ( no problem with that. there is need for different opinions and visions so I am not teasing here ;) ) and most other think it as tricorn and at least me and Foxe that is backwards.

I am thinking more along the lines of it being a badly drawn tricorn now than a bicorne (as I didnt realise they werent around then). The shading seems odd if it isnt shaped into at least a small point.

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back to that perpetual Admiral's hat issue

I think only one (Pod) thinks that admiral's hat as bicorn ( no problem with that. there is need for different opinions and visions so I am not teasing here ;) ) and most other think it as tricorn and at least me and Foxe that is backwards.

I am thinking more along the lines of it being a badly drawn tricorn now than a bicorne (as I didnt realise they werent around then). The shading seems odd if it isnt shaped into at least a small point.

The point seems to be on the back. And that point in front side seem to be curve what will born when head is in the hat.

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Ditto on tricorns being a b*tch to draw. And didn;t lots of folks wear them with the point over one eye, which would make drawing it to look like what we are familiar with as a tricorn even more unrecognizable? A tricorn over the left eye and the artist drawing from the right side of the subject might well be rendered as looking like a backwards tricorn.

Great pics. The one of Bridgetown in Barbados - one of my staff is from there and he recognized some of the place names and even the stakes or rocks in the mouth of the harbor, 312 years later!

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John_Greenwood_-_Sea_Captains_Carousing_in_Surinam.jpg

John Greenwood - Sea Captains Carousing in Suriname 1750s

William_Hogarth_-_The_South_Sea_Scheme.png

The South Sea Scheme by Hogarth ( 1721) I see that there is small wigs already in use. Not odd since they came in fashion in 1710s but took long time to them to replace the big wigs.

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=113&trs=272

Caribbean nature. picture made in 1671

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=149&trs=272

Taking of the Nuestra Señora de la Encarnación y Desengaño ( made in 1716)

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=163&trs=272

Aye there is market day in Porto Bello.

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=199&trs=272

ship building (made 1704). Interesting man with typical tricorn and coat and he can be captain but who knows. Nice stern that ship has already....

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=81&trs=272

Native American king greets Sir Francis Drake. Oh no he looks like 17th C man. Artist's error :unsure: .

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=51&trs=272

Tobago, Battle of, 1677. What a mess :wacko:

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/where/[Amsterdam]/;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=72&trs=272

There the Spanish got their silver. Made mid/ late 17th C

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Not piraty but a Hungarian Hussar from 1710 and two(Venetian) gentlemen of the same period painted by Luca Carlevarijs and from the V&A website

2006BH7385_jpg_l.jpg2007BP9736_jpg_l.jpg

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poor animals in this Hogarth work from 18th C

Cruelty2.JPG

33010128.jpg

Fencing in 17th C

orders10lp.jpg

man in 1710

orders11lp.jpg

man circa 1710

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ship in early 18th C

Image733.jpg

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early 17th C musketeers

Colley_Cibber_as_Lord_Foppington_in_The_Relapse_by_John_Vanbrugh_engraving.jpg

Gentleman circa 1700-1725.

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Robert-Dighton-The-Greenwich-Pensioner-18th-19th-c.jpg

late 18th C Retired sailor

Following pictures are from 1799 so later that gaop but they are sailors

PW4968.jpg

ship's carpenter

PW4966.jpg

cabin boy

PW4967.jpg

sailor

PW4969.jpg

Ships' cook

PW4971.jpg

purser

PW4970.jpg

Midshipman

PW4973.jpg

Lieutenant

PW4974.jpg

captain

PW4975.jpg

admiral

Not gaop stuff now....

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To continue posting pictures of gaop hats: Tricorn hat and unifrom of Charles XII (of Sweden) who was in killed siege in Norway in Great Northern War in 1718.

picture is just from wiki

Carolus_XII_dress_livrustkammaren_museum_stockholm.jpg

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