Advice on Restoring my Pistol

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I have a flinlock pistol I got from a vendor at a medieval faire, problem being it's covered in rust, and the spring beneath the frizzen is weak. I was told by a member of 'Blackberd's Crewe' to heat the spring to a grey heat and bend it, My old fencing teacher told me a good way to clean rust off swords is to run some wet tinfoil own it, and I wonder if that would work the same, Any advice?

[Commodore Swab]

How about posting some pictures?

[Cannibal Chrispy]

Wet foil would work on exteremly lightly rusted surfaces, but for heavier rust you will need somthing more abrasive. Photos would be helpful.

[jendobyns]

I have asked the gunsmith in our group what he thinks may be done. One of the techniques I have heard the lads talk about for rust is to rub brick dust on the metal, but I think there is more to it than that (a paste of brick dust and ? olive oil, perhaps?) Will forward his reply.

I have a flinlock pistol I got from a vendor at a medieval faire, problem being it's covered in rust, and the spring beneath the frizzen is weak. I was told by a member of 'Blackberd's Crewe' to heat the spring to a grey heat and bend it, My old fencing teacher told me a good way to clean rust off swords is to run some wet tinfoil own it, and I wonder if that would work the same, Any advice?

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

Thanks for all the advice, I will try to attach some picture but unfortunatly I don't have a digital camera just now.

[Jas. Hook]

Commodore -

Thar be a lot o' abrasives at the market. If it be light a kitchen scrounge pad might do. Could use some Ajax or Comet on the scrubby, it be easier to come by than brick dust. Work ye way up from there.

Jas. Hook

[peglegstrick]

I've used CLR (sold in hardware stores) on rusty barrels with great results. Mix it up as per the directions for rust & use steel wool. Remember to use rubber gloves though....the mixture will turn your fingernails orange! Ask me how I know..... my fingernail tips have still go an orange ring from rebluing a friend's shotgun a few months ago! After removing the rust rinse the parts with alcohol then either blue, brown or if keeping in the white then oil the parts. Do not get the CLR on any of the wood (it will remove the finish) or brass. Worked good for me.

PegLeg Strick

[Quartermaster James]

Tons to cover here!

What make pistol?

Are you sure it was meant to be fired at all?

If it's that rusted on the outside, there's a good chance you also have serious pitting inside the barrel.

What makes you think the frizzen spring is weak?

Before you play around with spring temper, you may want this: http://store.kitravenshear.com/simplified-vsprings.html While there, you may also want his manuals on metalworking for the antique guncraftsman.

[jendobyns]

I have a flinlock pistol I got from a vendor at a medieval faire, problem being it's covered in rust, and the spring beneath the frizzen is weak. I was told by a member of 'Blackberd's Crewe' to heat the spring to a grey heat and bend it, My old fencing teacher told me a good way to clean rust off swords is to run some wet tinfoil own it, and I wonder if that would work the same, Any advice?

I think Quartermaster James has hit some good points here already. And below is the reply from our unit's acting gunsmith/gun repair guy (and county cop), Dave Woolsey (which seems to have some overlap with QM James):

OK first what is "weak"? Does the frizzen not stay closed when the gun is pointed down, or if it is shaken? Does the gun not throw a proper spark? Does the frizzen spring not actually hold the frizzen closed?

I ask as these are very important, for a proper flintlock the frizzen spring has a very small task, to hold the frizzen closed during movement of the gun, but it really doesn't deal with ignition, it can only enhance it. IF for example the frizzen doesn't spark well, that's probably a function of a bad frizzen, or a bad mainspring, not the frizzen spring.

First, the easiest way to deal with the problem is to contact Track of The Wolf, and buy a hard copy of their catalog…, which has pictures of locks in a 1:1 ratio, so you can hold parts up from odd locks to the photos, and see if the currently produced locks have a part that will fit, or can be modified to fit. It's pretty easy and it's why they do the catalog that way.

Otherwise, the way to fix the spring, is to have it heated to a dull red, then bent. (A lesser color won't allow the metal to bend) It is then quenched in Canola oil, (I noticed the pirate consulted didn't mention quenching) and the spring will then be brittle. It must then be retempered by heating it to about 600-700 degrees, and the easiest way is to submerge it in melted alloy of lead and tin, for twenty minutes or so, and then to allow it to air cool.

The next way is to have a spring made for the gun.

[CharityRackham]

Like jendobyns, I'm with James. A number of questions to answer. You may want to check with the local gun club and see if they can recommend an 'expert' or check with the antique stores. They would usually know who to deal with.

When it comes to rust, any cleaning of the rust deteriorates the metal further. You are, after all, taking a layer or two off of the metal and can simply weaken it as you clean it. If it is going to wind up on display I would recommend you go to somewhere like 'House of Knives' and ask them for a tube of 'Flitz' and a jar of 'Museum wax.' Be patient with the Flitz. It is designed to clean and is an abrasive cream but it's meant to be as gentle as possible on the surface. We use it on set a lot for both plexi and metal for these reasons. We keep a small tube of it with the swords just in case but don't use unless we HAVE TO. I've been told up here that the next time I come in there may be another product to try as the supplier is sending them less and less each time. So if you can't find it there is another version of it out there.

Museum wax is a light coating that goes on the surface to keep moisture, etc. from 'settling' on the item but it is called 'museum' for a reason. It is mostly meant for things 'sitting around' not actively being used.

Flitz page:

http://www.flitz.com/

Museum Wax - I mostly use the Renaissance product:

http://www.restorationproduct.com/mainproducts.html

As for a pic. Your cell phone? Can it take a shot and maybe upload it to your Facebook, Myspace, Flickr and then post a link here? Or upload straight here from your phone?

[wes1761]

Brick dust was traditionally used to keep firelocks "armory bright". It was mixed with sweet oil (think olive) and used as a buffing compound.

Pics would help....

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

To answer your questions,

1. It was part of the last few batches of flintlocks made in China and Japan a few decades ago as part of a trade deal between those Countries and the US.

2. It was meant to be fired, I got a flint set in it by a member of Blackbeard's Crewe and it sparks properly.

3. I believe It's a sea service pistol, as it has a shorter barrel and a brass buttcap.

4. The rust is extenstive to the point that all the steel components, except the ramrod, are a darker shade of brown.

5. And by the Frizzen being weak from I mean it doesn't have as muck kick to it as when I first bought it, since some of my friends were playing with dispite my warnings.

6. But the hammer and trigger mechenism are in full working order.

Sorry it took me a while to answer, but I needed to do an inspection for what you were asking

[Quartermaster James]

1) Sounds like a reproduction 1780 Tower.

Does it look like these:

2) FWIW: Just because the lock sparks does not mean a gun was meant to be fired. There are a lot of replica (replica, not reproduction) guns out there of varying quality and detail, including working metal locks. The critical factors are the breech and barrel, and whether they are designed to withstand firing pressures. If your gun is as pictured above, it is probably from Miroku and is a serviceable piece.

3) If as above, yes. Is yours fitted with a belt clip?

4) Are you sure it's rust and not that the gun has been browned? (See lower pistol in picture above).

5) This sounds more like a mainspring issue. The frizzen spring is the spring on the front of the lock. It just holds the frizzen closed.

Different issues of these guns came with different locks. The two pistols pictured are good examples of this. Go to my album of them

( http://s256.photobuc...20Two%20Towers/ ) for more detailed photographs and comments about the two guns and their locks.

6) Okay, not sure what you mean by the gun no longer having as much kick then. Please explain further.

Y.M.H.S.

QMJ

[jendobyns]

Brick dust was traditionally used to keep firelocks "armory bright". It was mixed with sweet oil (think olive) and used as a buffing compound.

Pics would help....

Yep, that was it!

[Commodore Swab]

A friend of mine has one of these that he purchased a while back $40 I believe, we are solving the lock problems with a new lock. To avoid problems this is a good idea.

Commodore Swab

[Quartermaster James]

I've got to get a picture of it soon, but a friend bought one without a lock.

A large Siler was darn near a drop in fit.

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

1) Sounds like a reproduction 1780 Tower.

Does it look like these:

2) FWIW: Just because the lock sparks does not mean a gun was meant to be fired. There are a lot of replica (replica, not reproduction) guns out there of varying quality and detail, including working metal locks. The critical factors are the breech and barrel, and whether they are designed to withstand firing pressures. If your gun is as pictured above, it is probably from Miroku and is a serviceable piece.

3) If as above, yes. Is yours fitted with a belt clip?

4) Are you sure it's rust and not that the gun has been browned? (See lower pistol in picture above).

5) This sounds more like a mainspring issue. The frizzen spring is the spring on the front of the lock. It just holds the frizzen closed.

Different issues of these guns came with different locks. The two pistols pictured are good examples of this. Go to my album of them

( http://s256.photobuc...20Two%20Towers/ ) for more detailed photographs and comments about the two guns and their locks.

6) Okay, not sure what you mean by the gun no longer having as much kick then. Please explain further.

Y.M.H.S.

QMJ

Yes, It looks exactly like those two, exept more like the lower one, and it doesn't have a belt clip. Maybe 'not as much kick' was a poor description, let me try again, it used to be able to keep the frizzen in place very easily, and was stronger and less bendable, but now the frizzen is easily bent and weaker, a slight tap will rattle it open. But I'm pretty sure It has a thick coating of rust beacause the barrel and fireing peice are a solid dark color, not exactly a redish brown rust color, more of a browinsh dark Grey, and rubing the barrel does cause red/brown rust particles to fall off onto your fingers.

[Cannibal Chrispy]

And how rusty is it inside the barrel? are you gettin flakes of rust from inside too?

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

And how rusty is it inside the barrel? are you gettin flakes of rust from inside too?

To be honest, I haven't checked the inside, but I'm asuming it is.

[Quartermaster James]

And how rusty is it inside the barrel? are you gettin flakes of rust from inside too?

To be honest, I haven't checked the inside, but I'm asuming it is.

Given this information, I have to most strongly discourage you from firing this gun.

You have no idea of the soundness of the barrel or the breech plug.

It's better to lose a few dollars than a hand or an eye, or both.

Unless you can have this gun competently examined and pronounced safe, DO NOT FIRE THIS GUN!

[Dutchman]

greyhound, i have to agree with qm james. for your safety and others, please stop where you are and find a gun shop that handles black powder. Ask them to once over the gun for you. I have not seen you mention, and i don't want to assume here- but if you have not had a gun safety class, ask about one while you are there that specifically deals with black powder- not synthetics. I don't know of any reenactment events that would use it, but you never know.

Its good to see you asking questions about weapons but keep in mind these forums are nice for general inquiries, nothing replaces hands on time with your weapon and an instructor or armorer. We have some truly amazing weapons folks here who can answer questions on line and help you at events. You might check to see if there is a rev war reenactment unit in your area- they may have someone available, plus you might find likeminded folks near you to help with other questions about equipment resources and local events.

and one last thing....... please don't let your friends "play" with your weapon despite your warnings. as you can see thats how things get broken and you possibly get hurt. edit* and if your at a festival, find out what the "locals" policy is on letting the public handle any weapons, but these issues have been beat to death before so i'll stop here.

[Quartermaster James]

Ohio Black Powder Clubs

[Quartermaster James]

and one last thing....... please don't let your friends "play" with your weapon despite your warnings. as you can see thats how things get broken

Agreed! Believe it or not, locks have been broken by people forcing them to fire from the half-cock position!

Also, removing the springs without proper tools is good way to ruin them, and injudicious "polishing" of internal parts can reshape them beyond service.

I could go on, but you get the point.

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

Alright, thanks mates, I'll have an expert look it over and see if it's safe to fire.

[Cascabel]

Alright, thanks mates, I'll have an expert look it over and see if it's safe to fire.

The Japanese pistols that you refer to vary immensely in quality, and must be evaluated on an individual basis. They are usually referred to as "TOWER" pistols by most people because of the lock markings. I have never determined if the variation in quality is due to different manufacturers of these or if it is a matter of when they were made, with the lower quality ones being built towards the end of the production runs, or possibly a combination of the two factors. Most of them that I have examined have various glaring faults. Some problems being more serious than others. However, ALL can be made to function with some work. It is mostly whether or not you consider the amount of work to be worth the time or expense. All of them have bad geometry, which is a matter of internal lock variations having to do with the relationship of the tumbler to the sear, and also the angle at which the flint hits the steel. They also usually do not have properly balanced springs, which has to do with the strength of the frizzen spring in relation to the mainspring. There are also usually hardness issues with the frizzen and internal lock parts. I have also seen some where there is a gap between the lock and the side of the barrel large enough to allow powder to work it's way down behind the lock with potentially disastrous results if it were to ignite. They also benefit greatly from a bit of re-styling to improve their appearance. Again, all these things can be corrected and a decent pistol can be had, depending on how much work is needed. I have been told that there are a few that have bad barrels, but I have not run across any. All that I have dealt with have had quality issues regarding the locks, which can vary considerably on the inside, while appearing quite similar externally. They also have had problems such as the lock to barrel fitment previously mentioned.

>>>> Cascabel