Ivan Henry aka Moose

That "X" of cord on the side of a tricorn

55 posts in this topic

Wondering - I would like to secure my pipe, feathers, etc. more securely on my hat. I've noticed some Tricorns have a "X" of some type of string material on one side. Any side correct? What is the material? How does it fasten behind? Is it two pieces or one? Anyone have history on this? Pictures?

Thanks!

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Wondering - I would like to secure my pipe, feathers, etc. more securely on my hat. I've noticed some Tricorns have a "X" of some type of string material on one side. Any side correct? What is the material? How does it fasten behind? Is it two pieces or one? Anyone have history on this? Pictures?

Thanks!

Intrigomon...One side only? I have not seen this. I have seen both sides tacked to the crown in an "X" pattern.

This is common on modern hats with materials like leather or straw that don't take a shape the way steamed felt does.

I can't recall period hats fastened in this manner, but I by no means mean that as a definitive statement about period hats.

What does seem common though is two parallel, rather than crossed, stitches (loops) tacking the brim to the crown.

Disclaimer: This recollection may be more of later (AWI) hats and may not apply to GAoP. YMMV.

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I have seen the parallel cords that QJ mentioned they were usually ribbon or leather lacing from approx. 1730 on I know they were on the right side and sometimes the rear with a button or cockade on the left side during GAOP I'm not certain if they (button & cockade) were there. The button on the left-hand side was often looped with a ribbon so it could be lowered for sun or rain protection. This will give you a decent image Jas Townsend

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My trycrown bees made from leather so me x's are made from rawhide flat cord or strips that lay flat inside after pasing through the four holes forming the x out side one two inch pice for each side.

iwnbbo.jpg

Edited by Bright

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Yuurrrh , I dint like th' 'X' too good, but I do like leather hats, so I picked it out, an' 'rigged' me hat wi' waxed cords an' a nice early 18th century onyx portrait cameo on th' larboard side ta cover th' holes.

In order ta attatch feathers an such more firmly, just take a bit o' waxed string, or hemp beading thread, an' make a stitch from th' inside o' th' brim. then tie th' loose ends o' th' string tight around th' feathers or suchlike, an' th' brim will hide th' knot nicely. All anyone can see is one tiny subtle stitch from th' outside, which if colored th' same as yer hat will be almost invisible, like. I gots considerable gold joolry, medallions, an' feathers on me hat, an' with this rig I dont fear ta throw it to a mate if necessary (or fun)! Nothin' comes off. biggrin.gif I hopes this helps. wink.gif

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Bright, thanks for the input, but.... I am a little more PC and was looking for a historical as well as constructional perspective on this. Anyone?

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Bright, thanks for the input, but.... I am a little more PC and was looking for a historical as well as constructional perspective on this. Anyone?

With all due respect, what further information do you require?

Whether by loops, X's, or cockade you sew the brim to the crown. That's it.

If your brim is stiff, you'd be best off steaming and shaping it and then doing the sewing.

You may want to punch holes first, to make the sewing easier.

You may want to look at GoF's site: Hats

My personal opinion is that, outside the military, it was not common to tack the brim up with stitches.

I welcome any and all documentation either for or against this opinion.

Your post also had a secondary component: keeping your pipe on your hat. I am yet to be presented with any evidence this is not just a reenactorism.

Again, any documentation either way is more than welcome. These are investigative pursuits, not arguments.

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Your post also had a secondary component: keeping your pipe on your hat. I am yet to be presented with any evidence this is not just a reenactorism.

Again, any documentation either way is more than welcome. These are investigative pursuits, not arguments.

I remember seeing this in some dutch painting of the 17th century, not on tricorn. I'll double check....

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Thats a good question Mooseworth. I've never really thought about if the tacks were PC or not. mmmm... (runs off to search the interwebs)

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Yep 17th century but not on a tricorn:

http://www.arco-iris...hetoricians.jpg

http://www.casa-in-i...y_1674_1678.JPG

I saw it also in 2 illustrations from osprey book that could explain the reenactorism...

Those are some great images Cuisto! I haven't seen those before (or at least that I recall)... But going from those images, it looks like keeping a pipe in a thin leather band (?) on an earlier style hat was done. Presuming the practice was kept until the later 17th century or early 18th century, one might extrapolate that if they continued to do so, it might be on a band on the crown of the hat, which would be hidden the "cocked" sides of the hat? Which could explain why it wouldn't show up in period images of that era. And heck even if doing it for that era is wrong, it would be kind of hidden so depending on one's take on it, wouldn't matter anyways.

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Bright, thanks for the input, but.... I am a little more PC and was looking for a historical as well as constructional perspective on this. Anyone?

With all due respect, what further information do you require?

Whether by loops, X's, or cockade you sew the brim to the crown. That's it.

If your brim is stiff, you'd be best off steaming and shaping it and then doing the sewing.

You may want to punch holes first, to make the sewing easier.

You may want to look at GoF's site: Hats

My personal opinion is that, outside the military, it was not common to tack the brim up with stitches.

I welcome any and all documentation either for or against this opinion.

Your post also had a secondary component: keeping your pipe on your hat. I am yet to be presented with any evidence this is not just a reenactorism.

Again, any documentation either way is more than welcome. These are investigative pursuits, not arguments.

The further information I am looking for is what Jack Roberts mentioned. Is it even Period Correct? I am having trouble finding the "hat ties" in any of my research. As for the pipe... Here's a Caspar Luyken from 1703 (love the giant glass).

casparluyken170304.jpg

Here s an illustration - very clear of some calvary officers in 1705 - you can see their hats sort of clearly - I don't see any sort of "X" or loop or anything in this one.

361705.jpg

Edited by Mooseworth

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And we're off an running now! <_<

Great pics! Thanks!

Note the broken pipe on the ground in the second.

My experience exactly: hat band hadn't yet been tacked, whole thing came off and pipe hit the ground!

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You've got your pipe. You've got to put it somewhere out of the way where it won't be crushed by other items (as it would in your waistcoat pockets) because it's made of brittle clay. There were tens and probably hundreds of thousands of people who had this problem and also happen to have had hats on...

(I think you guys are bordering on the silly here. No offense. <_< )

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(I think you guys are bordering on the silly here. No offense. <_< )

This from the man with the DeLorean themed kitchen!?!? :lol::o

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Maybe we should rename "Captain Twill" to "OCD'r'Us"? <_<

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Ah, but I willingly bask in silliness and do not pretend to be serious, even when I'm pretending to be serious.

(You forgot the Star Wars themed bathroom, the pirate-themed living room, the Key West-themed dining room, the eagle-themed master bedroom and the eventually to be train-themed spare bedroom. Not to mention the life-sized velociraptor and...well, there's just too much. You'll have to visit my webpage to take it all in. <_<:lol: )

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So, back to the topic at hand:

The examples I have seen sewn up with the loops are AWI. Not that they didn't exist earlier, that's just what I've seen.

A couple tings I find worthy of note: 1) unless the stitching is done in a contrasting color, it's not readily visible (black cord against black wool hat); 2) in the picture of the Spanish (?) cavalry officers the brims do not appear to contact the crown, whereas in AWI illustrations they not only appear to contact the crown but to also conform around it. The evolution of fashion?

Well, back to the plates...

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Theres bees those that puts there pipe or quills through slits to tack their hat and hold the plumage.

http://tinypic.com/r/fozw2x/6

Then there bees the dandies that have pin to hold there plumage or pipe.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2n9ca4i.jpg

But I thought wees were talking about X's.

Me hat does have a band around the crow that bees laced thought slits that I use to hold things in me cap from time to time but withe the up turned brim yea can not see such detail

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Me hat does have a band around the crow that bees laced thought slits <snip>

Damn man! I wish I could train bees to lace!

Hats off to ye!

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Those are some great images Cuisto! I haven't seen those before (or at least that I recall)... But going from those images, it looks like keeping a pipe in a thin leather band (?) on an earlier style hat was done. Presuming the practice was kept until the later 17th century or early 18th century, one might extrapolate that if they continued to do so, it might be on a band on the crown of the hat, which would be hidden the "cocked" sides of the hat? Which could explain why it wouldn't show up in period images of that era. And heck even if doing it for that era is wrong, it would be kind of hidden so depending on one's take on it, wouldn't matter anyways.

You're welcome! wink.gif And I totally agree with you regarding the extrapolation to late 17th early 18th century on cocked hat. I tryed to hide a small clay pipe on my tricorn and it is stays in place very well. The felt of my tricorn is very stiff though so maybe with a softer felt you would have more chance of loosing it at some point...

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Just to confuse things, cocked hats sometimes used a hook on the hat brim and an eye on the crown of the hat. If you look carefully at mid-to-late 17th century hats you will see this. That doesn't help a bit with your pipe.

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Somewhere I heard that the crossed leather thongs on tricorns was not period correct. (I don't recall where, but I'm fairly certain it was from someone yammering on the topic at an event. So caveat emptor...)

Stitching would be more challenging to notice in artwork if it matched the hat color. Of course, stitching would not seem like it would hold up to having a pipe shoved into and being plucked out of it repeatedly, so that begs the question of whether you would put your pipe into a stitched cross that was primarily meant for keeping the hat in shape.

I also sort of wonder why they would stitch hats if the hats could be formed without it. (Maybe someone knows the reason for that?) Still, of the people who might do such a thing, it would seem to me that sailors would have a reason since they worked in damp environments where the hat might more easily lose it's blocking due to being wet so often.

Curious that there really hasn't been any proof produced for this on tricorns yet.

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If people mean this kind of X thing I firmly believe that it is not historically accurate in any way. Feel free to correct me if needed.

black-caribbean-pirate-hat.jpg

Real hats in Gaop period had feathers and some early form of hat cocards/rosettes or whatever. like in here:

(dates are in pictures)

no x

14_1700-5.jpg

no x but rosette thingies

15_1704.jpg

No x but rosette

20_1698.jpg

no x or rosettes

18_1720.jpg

neither here

23_1689-96-97.jpg

Same here in 1730

gpib_pam_07.jpg

no x only rosette

pic from 1730s

Blackbeard.png

and only rosette in like in here

edward-england.gif

I wonder how the sides stay without string :huh: ....

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

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Keep your pipe in a treen pipe case, I'd post images but I can't work out how to do it using this borrowed iPad. Image search for "clay pipe case" or treen clay pipe case, idea whittling project for a bored sailor =o)

Cocking laces are certainly in use on military and civilian hats from the 2nd quarter of the 18thC, right at the end of GAoP and can be laces(like bootlaces) ribbons or tapes, showing up usually as a pair of parallel lines, occasionally ,well I know of one surviving example, as three.

The stiffening in hats today is shellac(prob'ly not period but they used some sort of gum resin or starch to do it) and it breaks down in sunlight heat and moisture so without laces yer titfer'll go all droopy, not a pretty sight.

Often they match the hat, certainly by 'The end of The SevenYears War British infantry hats had laces the same colour as the edging, usually white.

Once I get to my 'puter rather than this flashy but pointless piece of tech bling I'll nail up some pics.

And don't get me started on leather tricorns...........

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