Cuisto Mako Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Yeah, but I'm hardcore, you know that Mark. I play from 1580 to 1780, 5 major periods, 5 different sets of kit, including weapons. BUT it's taken me 30 years to get to that point, and my kit still changes as new information and sources become available. If they are young and have limited resources, then concentrate on the one period and don't try crossing periods until you can get the kit to match the venue. I guess I hark back to one of the first times we met, back at Plimoth, what '88 or so?. I've been using their ideas as a base for my standard since then. Took me 10 years to get to that point, and the progression has continued since then. So yeah, I'm harsh when I look at other kit, especially when they are cross timing. They're young, no great hurry. Take it slow, concentrate on one thing and get it right, before starting the next, and then put the same effort in before you take it into the field. Hawkyns One thing I find very refreshing with pirate reenactment is that people are very welcoming, very warm and encouraging, probably because it is fairly new. Based on your comment Hawkyns, what I understand is that I would not be welcome to a 17th century event as a newbie unless my kit is close to perfection. You said it yourself it took you 30 years, that's a pretty good advance and hard to follow. Now how can I learn from that experience if I'm not welcome to participate? I think any time period reenactment, if they want to grow and survive as a hobby, needs to show an open-minded attitude from both parties, veteran and rookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 [ One thing I find very refreshing with pirate reenactment is that people are very welcoming, very warm and encouraging, probably because it is fairly new. Based on your comment Hawkyns, what I understand is that I would not be welcome to a 17th century event as a newbie unless my kit is close to perfection. You said it yourself it took you 30 years, that's a pretty good advance and hard to follow. Now how can I learn from that experience if I'm not welcome to participate? I think any time period reenactment, if they want to grow and survive as a hobby, needs to show an open-minded attitude from both parties, veteran and rookies. Well, I was going to drop this subject, but I think you have a legit question that deserves an answer. When I go to a period that I am interested in, but have not done before, I go in mundane kit as a spectator. I talk to the people who are there, ask who has been doing it longest, find out who the unit commanders are, and determine their kit standards. I'll also go to my library, go on line, and find out what the common garb for the period is. In short, research. The old standby is, for every hour in the field, 10 hours in the library. All of this will tell me how much of my kit will transfer over, what specific items I need to acquire, and what can be slid or disguised. Then, I am ready for the next event, when I can turn out, or I can say that it requires too much effort and/or money and this might not be a period that I can make a legit impression for. This is all for living history, let me say, not pirate events. When you start down the living history road, the first thing to acknowledge is that you have become a defacto teacher. Everyone who sees you will interpret what you do and say, and how you act, to be indicative of the period you are portraying. Every glitch, every wrong comment, every piece of kit that is out of place will be noticed by somebody. It may result in people laughing at you, or some kid learning something the wrong way that will come back to haunt them. The worst is finding a member of the public who knows more than you do who will call you on the mistake. That can be embarrasing in the extreme. It can also lead to museum directors taking you off their invite list. Yes, there's a huge difference between living history and pirate festivals. It takes much more time, money, and commitment. It is not something that should be done as a one off, or without suitable prep. To do so is unfair to the organisers, the public, and the living historians that have put in the time and effort to do it right. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I must say that I've stayed away from several events that were out of my period of capabilities, kit-wise. St. Augustine has Drake's Raid and I don't have the correct gear or weapons to do 1500s. If I had gone this year, I would have done what Hawkyns did and go mundane and learn from the experts there what works and what doesn't. With living history, there is a temptation to dilute the representation to accommodate everyone - when that happens the even loses its accuracy. It's OK to pass on an event because you don't have the proper gear and wait until such time as you do. I do that myself (as a relative newcomer to living history) -- for me, it demonstrates my respect for the work others have done. When I do the living history, I stick with the periods I can do well. Few people can do every period well. So I stick with Buccaneer era with a slight dabble in Golden Age. And if I am doing buccaneer, I don't want to see a percussion rifle during a demo. It makes no sense. Nor does a tricorn. So, I can see Hawkyns' point. There are plenty of opportunities to play periods you fit in or attend pirate festivals that have a wide interpretation, like PiP. But I think it's all about showing respect in these instances for those who have worked much harder than I to represent their craft well and appropriately. -- Hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 In the spirit of dragging this discussion more back on topic... Hawkyns, I don't particularly disagree with you on getting it reasonably well together before doing a new period, but in that same breath I have to point out that a good deal of lassitude needs to be granted for the more fringe re-enacting periods. For most mid to late 18th century, there are so many people doing them, those events can afford to set the bar reasonably high and encourage good research and kit development before coming out... But for most 17th century events, there are so few people that do it well, that a good deal of flexibility probably needs to be granted until the scene grows... Or quite frankly, I don't believe it ever will. Not having been to a great deal of strict 17th century event, my opinions may be slightly skewed, but one thing I have noticed, is the average age of a 17th century re-enactor, it seems to be a lot higher than most other eras I have been in contact with. Have you considered the "old school" 17th century re-enactors may be holding to a standard that few to no newbies are willing to try to reach? Perhaps relaxing a bit might help breath some new life to earlier period re-enacting. Like I said, I'm not heavily immersed in the 17th century scene yet, but I have been around the block once or twice. Realistically, this comes down to a quantity versus quality debate, and different people are going to set their opinions in just about every shade of grey on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Have you considered the "old school" 17th century re-enactors may be holding to a standard that few to no newbies are willing to try to reach? Perhaps relaxing a bit might help breath some new life to earlier period re-enacting. That's a debate that is going on in very period right now. We are losing the younger generation because they find it easier and more comfortable to find their escape fantasy on line, rather than in a leaky tent. More and more of the guys in the field are greybeards, people who have been doing this for 20 years or more. It may be that living history, at least in some periods, is in a terminal decline. That then begs the question- how much do we dilute history, dumb it down in my words, to attract new people?Is it fair to the people we are recreating, to the museums who allow us to play, to the public who come to see us, and to those who have put in the time to reduce standards to the point that anyone can play? Who will care if that buccaneer has a Springfield instead of a club butt musket? Who will really know? Will the public really care if Thomas Tew is wearing drop fall breeches instead of French fly? A white nylon hunters tent is so much easier to care for than canvas, and it looks the same, right? Where do we start drawing that line? That is one of the slipperiest slopes out there, one that I don't believe we should put a toe onto, never mind a step or two. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 All very good points Hawkyns... How does one draw the line? What level of detail can we be flexible on that the public won't notice? But a contrarian could easily point out (and PiP is a great example of this), is that when the newer folks get out in a flexible environment that has some good solid re-enactors, they often begin the process of improving. I don't want to name names or point anyone out, but there are a good many folks on this forum that started out as more stereo-typical pirates that have in a year or less put together some of the better portrayals out there. I know the pirate festivals that have re-enactor areas are much different creature than the living history focused events that 17th century re-enacting usually entails... But a lot of good can be done by learning from that example, or at least I believe so. If there were a ton more 17th century events, it would be likely that some would go the more flexible route, and some not... But with the small pool of events there seems to be, that doesn't seem to be a realistic option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBrower Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I don't think it's dumbing down history that is the problem here. I think it's the lack of flexibility in getting people out there to begin with that is the problem. This thread is really not the place for this. But... When I started reenacting, I started with Civil war. My first event I wore the worst dress imaginable, wore sketchers boots and had a pink elastic band in my hair (this is important). It was AWFUL. but it was loner garb so I could get out, play, see what it was like. I was immediately spotted by someone who became a very good friend whom everyone called "hard core marc" because he was, well, HARD CORE. (lol). He spotted my pink elastic, and started chatting with me about why I was there, what I was wearing, why it was incorrect, what I could do, where I could go, what resources were available, etc... He became one of my best friends and I LOVED him. Actually, he's the reason that I am so concerned with accuracy now. And okay fine, I'm sure some of you might think I'm not. but this is also the reason that I understand the need to just get out there. For a long time my civil war stuff was not perfect. Hell, I never could afford really correct shoes, but it is all part of the debate... Should I have been barred from participation? Or just pointed out for my folly? These are all questions worth addressing and a whole other debate entirely. BUT. The question at hand... The Sea Rats Atlantic looked AWESOME this past weekend. They provided the pike drills as well as blacksmithing. Should that go away because one kid was acting silly on a day that the event was not officially taking place? Or some of us didn't have the right pants (and yeah, it really was my guys that had the wrong silhouette and we knew going into it). No, history should not be dumbed down. We should be prepared to acknowledge our shortcomings (like my pretty pink elastic or our 18th century garb) and make improvements. But to have this feeling like I can't go somewhere without someone looking down on me because they feel they are better because they are more "PC" it makes me not want to improve, but find another time period. That is not going to help continue reenactments. They will become extinct. I don't know if I have made myself clear at all because I'm getting upset... I take this a little personally so I have to apologize for that. Cook and Seamstress to the Half Moon Marauders Lady Brower's Treasures, Clothing and other treasures Hell Hath No Fury like the Wrath of a Woman... No that's it. She doesn't need a reason. www.myspace.com/halfmoonmarauders www.myspace.com/faerienoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 That would be my answer, in general. We use the pirate festivals, the ren faires, and the SCA as our recruiting grounds. We maintain historically accurate portrayals and camps in these areas. We show people that doing it right is fun, and there are more fun toys and places to play, if you have accuracy behind you and the support of the museums. Hopefully, we will keep enough interest to get people involved with our side of the hobby. It one of the reasons I lament the decline of the press gang. 17th century has been in decline for a few years. Mostly, it was being held together by the English Civil War folks. We had a great run through the 90's, in the run up to the 350th anniversary of the Martyrdom of Charles. It's been fading since then, and there is a fairly diverse group out there now. Some of us are doing very early, even back into Drake's era. There are some doing ECW still, more doing restoration, and not a few dealing with the Pequot Wars and the 17th C colonial period, as well as the GAoP living historians. We used to all get together at St Mary's City for the 17th C Muster, but that has also been declining, due to site rules, an over reliance on the same old competitions, and moving the date around. One of the great things to come out of the the Hudson 400 this past weekend was were ideas to re-enrgize 17th c and get it rolling again. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuisto Mako Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 I agree with mister Souris on that one. I think a newbie deserve a try. Now if the guy is still wearing his rev war breeches to a 17th event after 4 or 5 event that's a problem. You give the example of a Springfield musket versus a club butt one. But what about a 1690 fusil de tulle to a 1670s event? Would it create a fuss? Based on some comments and reactions I have seen ont he web on different forum, I think it would. Now that's a very strict line if you ask me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Honestly it truly boils down to what the event organizers want for their event. They provide the event, the playground, and sometimes, fringe benefits...we should respectfully adhere to their wishes... as it is their event, their playground and their fringe benefits... I think we in the pirate genre are very spoiled, as crews set their standards(which in many cases apply only to each crew) and so far, not the event organizers, although I have noticed some things along those lines are starting to change... but this is for OUR time frame..do we really have the right to apply our standards to other time frames... again, not our events... When I did A. Rev War... you didn't dare show up as a newbie in what you thought might be passable...you arrived in street clothes and asked questions first... if you didn't, in many top events, you were promptly, and politely, asked to leave or change... and the time frame grew and flourished... I guess I am old school as well, but when you are invited to a special event and there is a dress code, such as white tie and tails or black tie only... you don't show up in your comfy jeans... Frankly all Hawkyns did was post his opinion and back it up with examples... and from what I know of the Sea Rats, they would most likely be willing to listen to said opinion and learn from it...or at least I would hope... after all, none of us know it all and anyone who claims they do ...well... I hear tons of high praise from thousands of people regarding the Archangel's accomplishments, but its the folks that mumble "that's not correct" or "I would question that particular camp item" that truly get my attention... can't fix something if you don't know its broken... granted I am not going to butt heads with some nasty know it all either... life is too short for arses...and all it takes is a little sense not to be rotten or assume the worst. In the end it all comes down to attitude... Lady Brower, I cringe to think where you would be now, IF you hadn't run into a nice experienced reenactor, who was willing to help and not blindly bash away at you, your first time out... With the proper attitude, experienced reenators/living historians can easily encourage and help the newbies, out, but the newbies have to accept said help with an equally gracious attitude and not assume that they are being ripped apart all the time...not every experienced reenactor is a nasty button pisser... here's one for Mission and Jessi, why is that people get so damned defensive all the time? instead of just assuming that someone is actually trying to help? Time to get back to the old standard of believing the best and not the worst of people... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Honestly it truly boils down to what the event organizers want for their event. They provide the event, the playground, and sometimes, fringe benefits...we should respectfully adhere to their wishes... as it is their event, their playground and their fringe benefits... Bingo. If you don't like what an event does or doesn't allow, don't go to the event. Sterling is dead on - the organizers are the ones doing all the hard work and they are actually paying a lot of the freight (often more than most re-enactors know). So if you can't fit in for whatever reason, either find a way to fit in or find another event. Frankly all Hawkyns did was post his opinion and back it up with examples... and from what I know of the Sea Rats, they would most likely be willing to listen to said opinion and learn from it...or at least I would hope... after all, none of us know it all and anyone who claims they do ...well... I hear tons of high praise from thousands of people regarding the Archangel's accomplishments, but its the folks that mumble "that's not correct" or "I would question that particular camp item" that truly get my attention... can't fix something if you don't know its broken... granted I am not going to butt heads with some nasty know it all either... life is too short for arses...and all it takes is a little sense not to be rotten or assume the worst. Bingo again. We're all learning and if you can't (or, more likely, won't) hear the criticism, you're shutting off a major source of really excellent growth and learning possibilities. In the end it all comes down to attitude... Lady Brower, I cringe to think where you would be now, IF you hadn't run into a nice experienced reenactor, who was willing to help and not blindly bash away at you, your first time out...With the proper attitude, experienced reenators/living historians can easily encourage and help the newbies, out, but the newbies have to accept said help with an equally gracious attitude and not assume that they are being ripped apart all the time...not every experienced reenactor is a nasty button pisser... Beautiful. This is the one thing that bothers me about the strict purists. I think they do far more damage to the expansion of the hobby than any person wearing polyester will ever do. There's a nice way to tell folks they can improve and help them to do so and then there is the method of looking down your nose because you have accumulated knowledge that someone else hasn't. The second approach is immature and harmful. Here's one for Mission and Jessi, why is that people get so damned defensive all the time? instead of just assuming that someone is actually trying to help? Time to get back to the old standard of believing the best and not the worst of people... Eh? Not sure I understand why we are being asked this (and I doubt Jessi will even see it). I think a lot of misunderstanding comes from personality type differences. Approximately 3/4 of the world are Sensors and they accept most things at face value. 1/4 are iNtuitives and always search for the meaning underlying things. (And there is often such meaning.) Jessi and I both happen to be iNtuitives. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 sniggering... Mission strikes again... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Death Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I think attitude has a lot to do with it-both from the person seeking advice and the person giving it. some people really know their stuff and talk down to everyone else, and some people are right no matter how farby they are. we need to accept that none of us is perfect, heck look at they polyester rev war uniforms for the bicentennial that everyone just KNEW were the stuff to have 30 years ago. its always a learing experience. if i'm wrong, i'm willing to be corrected, and i want to learn as much as i can, but even i get a little riled when some know it all gets pompous with me. is it possible that pirate isnt a clearly defined time period? i mean we had jean lafittes pirates in the war of 1812, so..... in my mind, pirate gets mostly cut off as far as the 1720s or so, but thats just me. sam Alright, but I'll kill anyone who gets in the way of me killing anyone! let me break it down for ya: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Honestly it truly boils down to what the event organizers want for their event. They provide the event, the playground, and sometimes, fringe benefits...we should respectfully adhere to their wishes... as it is their event, their playground and their fringe benefits... Absolutely true of events with formal organizers. Unfortunately not true of all events, many events are organized by the participants, and the participants as much input and drive the event as much as the organizers do. Again, here is where there is a big divide between small 17th century events, and pirate festivals. I think we in the pirate genre are very spoiled, as crews set their standards(which in many cases apply only to each crew) and so far, not the event organizers, although I have noticed some things along those lines are starting to change... but this is for OUR time frame..do we really have the right to apply our standards to other time frames... again, not our events... When I did A. Rev War... you didn't dare show up as a newbie in what you thought might be passable...you arrived in street clothes and asked questions first... if you didn't, in many top events, you were promptly, and politely, asked to leave or change... and the time frame grew and flourished... I guess I am old school as well, but when you are invited to a special event and there is a dress code, such as white tie and tails or black tie only... you don't show up in your comfy jeans... Adding to my last statement, if someone is having a party, and all the potential guests say they'll show up if it is casual, and the host demands it is a black tie or nothing deal... Where does that leave the party? Re-enactors drive the events a great deal more than many event organizers like to admit. I think M.A.d'Dogge has impressed that point a great deal in some recent black powder regulations discussions (one of the Paynetown threads? with regards to flash pan covers?). Event organizers can ask for or demand things to a point, but re-enactors make or break the event, and given a strong enough push back, can have a event rule altered or changed or made flexible enough... Or an event organizer can be inflexible and drive many participants away and kill the event... Whether slowly or quickly would be the only question in that case. There are two sides to event organization, and BOTH sides make a huge difference. Frankly all Hawkyns did was post his opinion and back it up with examples... and from what I know of the Sea Rats, they would most likely be willing to listen to said opinion and learn from it...or at least I would hope... after all, none of us know it all and anyone who claims they do ...well... I hear tons of high praise from thousands of people regarding the Archangel's accomplishments, but its the folks that mumble "that's not correct" or "I would question that particular camp item" that truly get my attention... can't fix something if you don't know its broken... granted I am not going to butt heads with some nasty know it all either... life is too short for arses...and all it takes is a little sense not to be rotten or assume the worst. Where a statement comes from can make a big difference as to how it is interpreted... I think a lot of the defensiveness here comes from the fact that there are no Sea Rats on this forum to speak for themselves. And I believe those being defensive here may have no idea of what, if any relationship there is between Hawkins and the Sea Rats... whether it be a good relationship, no relationship, or bad blood, only Hawkins and the Sea Rats can speak to that, and as far as I know, only one half of that equation exists here on the pub, and the rest of us should probably leave that alone for them to resolve, IF any resolving needs to be done. In the end it all comes down to attitude... Lady Brower, I cringe to think where you would be now, IF you hadn't run into a nice experienced reenactor, who was willing to help and not blindly bash away at you, your first time out... With the proper attitude, experienced reenators/living historians can easily encourage and help the newbies, out, but the newbies have to accept said help with an equally gracious attitude and not assume that they are being ripped apart all the time...not every experienced reenactor is a nasty button pisser... here's one for Mission and Jessi, why is that people get so damned defensive all the time? instead of just assuming that someone is actually trying to help? Time to get back to the old standard of believing the best and not the worst of people... Was busy typing this when the split happenned.. Please feel free to move this to the appropriate place! Sorry about making more work for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Absolutely true of events with formal organizers. Unfortunately not true of all events, many events are organized by the participants, and the participants as much input and drive the event as much as the organizers do. Again, here is where there is a big divide between small 17th century events, and pirate festivals. Well honestly all events are organized by someone or some group... and some organizers set there own rules and expect to be listened to and they have every right to do so.. and then there are some organizers who are willing to listen to what their participants are interested in... but someone is still organizing the thing...some are just allowing their participants input.. tell MTA to lower their standards to include everyone and see how far ye get... Adding to my last statement, if someone is having a party, and all the potential guests say they'll show up if it is casual, and the host demands it is a black tie or nothing deal... Where does that leave the party? hmmm perhaps not a good comparison on my part in the first place, due to the fact that most parties carry on as folks either don't attend due to the dress code, OR they go out and rent a tux...Can't say I have heard of too many weddings where the guests were up in arms about the dress code and all refused to come. Granted in the old days folks would not have been rude and would have complied if they could afford to especially since a formal party is usually to honor someone or something...and not the individual attending who was invited...Re-enactors drive the events a great deal more than many event organizers like to admit. I think M.A.d'Dogge has impressed that point a great deal in some recent black powder regulations discussions (one of the Paynetown threads? with regards to flash pan covers?). Event organizers can ask for or demand things to a point, but re-enactors make or break the event, and given a strong enough push back, can have a event rule altered or changed or made flexible enough... Ah this I well know, especially regarding that flash guard thread as I am the one who started the stink in the first place... as I will not be applying my standards to another time frame nor due I expect another time frame to apply their standards to mine... Or an event organizer can be inflexible and drive many participants away and kill the event... Whether slowly or quickly would be the only question in that case. There are two sides to event organization, and BOTH sides make a huge difference. Honestly it all boils down to what the event organizer is wanting to produce with his event...are they running a Pirate type festival where they have both "reel and real" pirates? In which, most cases, the two groups truly work well together and set each other off well with their differences... I have yet to go to an event where the spectators turned against the Reel pirates (Hollywood/myth folks)because there were reenactors at the same event or vice versa. But say MTA is running the event, is it really wise to encourage them to change their rules? They are out to teach history and actually judge the groups attending... would it be wise for them to lower their standards? I don't think so...and they have every right not to do so... and who is to say that maybe they would rather shut down their event then lower the standards so that spectators are truly getting the wrong impression? Where a statement comes from can make a big difference as to how it is interpreted... I think a lot of the defensiveness here comes from the fact that there are no Sea Rats on this forum to speak for themselves. And I believe those being defensive here may have no idea of what, if any relationship there is between Hawkins and the Sea Rats... whether it be a good relationship, no relationship, or bad blood, only Hawkins and the Sea Rats can speak to that, and as far as I know, only one half of that equation exists here on the pub, and the rest of us should probably leave that alone for them to resolve, IF any resolving needs to be done. Honestly still don't understand why everyone is getting so defensive, whether or not the Sea Rats ever reply or not? Maybe they don't even care? Sometimes when we get defensive, we make them look even worse not better... maybe, once again, folks should learn to stop assuming that others mean the worst by what they say.... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Adding to my last statement, if someone is having a party, and all the potential guests say they'll show up if it is casual, and the host demands it is a black tie or nothing deal... Where does that leave the party? Re-enactors drive the events a great deal more than many event organizers like to admit. I think M.A.d'Dogge has impressed that point a great deal in some recent black powder regulations discussions (one of the Paynetown threads? with regards to flash pan covers?). Event organizers can ask for or demand things to a point, but re-enactors make or break the event, and given a strong enough push back, can have a event rule altered or changed or made flexible enough... Or an event organizer can be inflexible and drive many participants away and kill the event... Whether slowly or quickly would be the only question in that case. There are two sides to event organization, and BOTH sides make a huge difference. While it is true that a very strict period event will (in fact, must) turn off some re-enactors, it is still their right to do so. (I'll bet half the re-enactors out there are women. They don't really fit in much of the pirating world very well.) So the organizers will probably have a party to which few re-enactors can come, but if that's what they want, it is their party, so that's what they should have. (I most likely wouldn't go to such an event on general principles, but that's just me.) I think by definition a strictly period event would have a small (hard) core group of re-enactors. In some ways it would be a dazzling thing to behold - as a spectator. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) I'm with you Mission! I'd love to go to an event with lots of discharge of weapons in the streets, whoring, topless native women, smelly rogues and wine flowing like water. Man, would I love that. :) Unfortunately, there's no way for any of us to do a true buccaneer or GAoP representation these days without breaking some major laws (rape comes to mind). And that slavery thing in the Civil War is kind of distasteful. I don't think there's many hardcore African American re-enactors who want to be whipped just to be authentic. So we still pick and choose our level of authenticity, no matter what the event. It's great to represent living history and live the life, but there are still limitations -- can't exactly walk into a town near a re-enactment these days and break the windows, torch buildings, plunder treasure or take advantage of the governor's wife. Hurricane Edited October 1, 2009 by hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casketchris Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 My opinion is that history reenacting should not be made easier for the sake of getting more people to attend, but the reenactors should make the “newbie’s” feel welcome as long as they are doing their best and truly trying to represent the era of the event. As for the group I am in we try to be as historical as we can afford for the golden age. That’s not to say we don’t have a few things around the camp that are not perfect but we try. And the funny or not so funny part about it is we go to pirate fairs here in California because those are the only real outlets for us as reenactors of this age and we get people wanting to know why we are there telling us we don’t have bucket boots or we need more black and skull and crossbones, or as we walk around saying “hey where’s the tea party”. So I understand what’s being discussed if it is in a weird twilight zone reverse kind of way. I think being nicer to new comers is the best way to get new players, the same thing happened to me when I first became a Mason, the older men who had been in lodge for the last 30 or 40 years would just sit and complain about not being able to compete with modern “things” and the attendance of lodge was declining because of it. Well me and a friend joined and came up with new fresh ideas for the lodge and brought them up one meeting, needless to say they were not well accepted and we were chastised for not following the “old ways”. So the question is are the new “computer generation” to blame for the lack of people doing history reenacting or are we to blame for not being “friendly and accepting” I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle, being more accepting to people who are really trying but not sacrificing all the authenticity just to get a bunch of players. My two cents sorry if I seem naïve on the subject of philosophy of authenticity Nautical acquisition and redistribution specialist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I think the main issue is the difference between Living History reenacting, and Pyrate Festivals. You're talking apples and oranges here. Personally, I would not presume to show up at a living history event wearing out of period garb. When you know ahead of time that there will be rules regarding the period correctness of clothing and encampments, then it would be rude to show up and expect to participate. As has been stated already, show up in street clothing, ask questions, and decide if it is something you want to get involved with. Pyrate festivals are a lot more open to any type garb, although there are groups who stay very PC at these events as well. The Kern Co. Privateers come to mind, who had a very PC encampment at Ojai, even though Ojai is an anything goes event. They made a good example of how those who are playing with the more theatric side of pyracy, can see what the real thing looks like and decide if they want to change their garb to something more accurate. Lots of people are not interested in PCness and just want to play...and that's okay. Event organizers rely on participation by reeneactors, whether living history or fairs. People make time to travel (in some cases, long distances) to put on demos, shows, and interact with the public — in most cases for free. Event organizers would never be able to afford to pay that many people to show up. They can set perameters for individual events, but if they become too strict, they may end up with few people willing to make the effort to show up, and the event dies. It is easy to contact an event organizer ahead of time to find out just how strict they are going to be concerning garb and encampments. This would help people avoid showing up at an event and feeling unwelcome, or being told that they don't qualify for participation. ...schooners, islands, and maroons and buccaneers and buried gold... You can do everything right, strictly according to procedure, on the ocean, and it'll still kill you. But if you're a good navigator, a least you'll know where you were when you died.......From The Ship Killer by Justin Scott. "Well, that's just maddeningly unhelpful."....Captain Jack Sparrow Found in the Ruins — Unique Jewelry Found in the Ruins — Personal Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Not to be defensive, but only to carry the discussion on... I fully agree an event organizer (no matter what individual or group) has the right to set standards and stick by them. But I do believe an organizer(s) that sets the bar too high is setting themselves up for a small private party or failure. I tend to approach re-enacting from the more community angle... And pushing back on organizers to allow for beginners or some flexibility on authenticity is the responsibility of those whose opinions they are most likely to trust.. Those who are the most experienced and have the best gear or knowledge of the period. If all organizers are hearing from those they trust is, this and that only should be allowed and this that and the other thing should never be allowed (or other similar statements that would exclude most or all beginners).... Well the event organizers will find themselves relying on the advice of those trying to create a small elite rather than a larger pool of passables and some elites. Flexibility often does drive off some purists, and it is up to every event organizer to make the decision as to where to draw the line and what end of the spectrum they want to sacrifice. And whether they want to set their event as a growing event that encourages beginners, or as an event on the other end of that spectrum. I see your points Sterling, but MTA is perhaps a poor example. For those who don't know, MTA=Military Through the Ages, and as the name implies it is a time-line event with lots of different periods. It's a fair bit easier to get a big event when one is drawing the best of many time frames. Trying to get an event anywhere close to that big with a single time period, specially one that isn't as popular as most others (such as the 17th century) couldn't be any more different. And I am trying to make my point based on the premise of setting up events in a niche or fringe re-enactment era, not a big or popular era, or time-line scenario. All of my posts in this thread should be read with the niche market re-enactment scene in mind to avoid interpreting my comments in an apples to oranges manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 personally i see nothing wrong with a FEW "Invite Only" events...that set the bar for re-enacting higher than other events...whatever the time line....i have only seen events with WAITTING LINES to be invited....for bragging rights if nothing else....there are plenty of other events to get newbies feet wet....(one of my first was a wild west event...wore a taped on muostache... ).....and i personally advocate "mentoring" programs...for some of us who have been re-enacting for some time now(20+)...to help bring in new blood....and to help them start their path to the dark side....MUhahahaha should ALL events be this way?...probably not....is it ok if a few are..yep....it gives us all something to strive for...so each of us...newbies to 20+ ers and beyond....to continue to grow....to constantly strive to grow within our impressions. if i dont get a new addition to my Kit every year...i start to get stagnant and throw fits... .....but is there room for all levels within the community?....Yep...but probably not at every event.... done rambling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I'm with you Mission! I'd love to go to an event with lots of discharge of weapons in the streets, whoring, topless native women, smelly rogues and wine flowing like water. Man, would I love that. :) Well, of course there are legal points to consider... Still, like M.A. d'Dogge said, if you want to be one of the elite, being able to play at a hard-core re-enactment event would be a nice feather in your cap. I see nothing wrong with that (again, as long as the major modern legalities are observed.) I wonder just how much firing of weapons there really was in the streets during period? I have said before (and will probably say again) if you're 50% accurate to the real thing, you're probably in the elite. As much as we read, we will never really know what it was like until someone invents a way to travel through time. A written account is always slanted by the opinion and attitude of the writer. And some writers are influential and impact and inform the style of other writers, so you can't even be 100% certain when you find a few people in consensus. (As a would-be medico, I can show you references that contradict each other all over the place. So, like the bible, whatever mostly reasonable thing you want to believe about period medicine, I can probably find a reference to support you. Leeches? Just found a new reference that contradicts several others. Cauterizing? Some did so willingly, some hesitantly, some abhorred it. There's almost no such thing as consensus in the details.) Personally, I wouldn't even want to go to an elite event as a re-enactor. While such a thing would be dazzling to behold as a spectator, it would also probably be replete with overly-talky know-it-alls and stuffy self-rightous prigs and intentionally demeaning jerks. A little of that goes a long way. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I've done 17th century living history from all angles. I've been to England and particpated in the big battles and parades with several hundred people. By being part of the larger group and following their rules, I've marched down the Mall from the Palace through Horseguards and taken the salute of the mounted troops there. That was a kick I'll never forget. I've been able to actually live in the villages at Plimoth and Jamestown by being hardcore and following their standards. I've also lived in the village at Salem, MA and been one of only 4 people there for an event and still had a great time. It comes down to what the organiser is comfortable with and what they consider to be a success. I don't need the large groups to do this, and, frequently, neither do the sites. 2 or 3 people doing it right, even if the public numbers are low, is still a win to many of them. It doesn't even have to be a major event. Just a regular weekend, with nothing special planned works fine. I got to live in one of the cottages and spend a few days living like a colonist would have. Up at dawn, make breakfast on the fire, muck out the sheep and goat pens, feed the animals, spend the day making fences with axe and brushhook, spend the evening around the fireplace with a couple of like minded friends and a pipe and a cider or two. Not a shot fired, probably no more than 30 people all weekend. But we got to live the period. It all depends what you are looking for. If lots of people and excitement or a battle are what you are looking for, then it is probably easier to find such events and the standards will probably be more relaxed. If you are truly looking for living history and wish to really experience the period, then an extremely high level of authenticity will get you into the smaller, more intimate sites, where the anomalies will show up much more easily. The standard I've always worked with is that if the time machine ever became available, could I go back o the period and not be noticed as being out of place in any detail. If I do this on my own, see not another person for 2 or 3 days, but live within the perameters of my persona, I've succeeded in my immediate goal. Michael, you know from the other board we are on what the trekking mentality is, live on your own hook, with no more than period technology for days at a time. That's the standard I bring to pyracy. No, it's not for everybody and it should not be. We need the other types of sites and events to form our gene pool. If we get one percent of those people to join us on the dark side, I'd consider it a success. But when we go for a major living history event, it is that one percent that we need. Then we can truly get closer to showing the life of the period. (Hurricane, I agree with you. The modern ideas of what is acceptable public behaviour are ridiculously uptight. For years, my dream has been of an adults only event where, other than actual crime, we can act as they would have. To get enough like minded people together who are willing to go along with it, is, to my deep disapointment, unlikely.) Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 This is really an interesting discussion, folks. I haven't seen such a good one here for a while. Refreshing and very fun and insightful to follow along and participate in. Kudos to all who are adding their own insights and experiences. Am learning much. -- Hurricane Mission - Port Royal had many famous episodes of one buccaneer or another brawling and then either shooting one another or offing them by sword. Many of the buccaneers were given a very wide birth during the earliest days of the town, before the prisons were built and law and order began to be dispensed. That is the time I would love to visit most. Port Royal in its prime. :) Unfortunately, I'm not tough enough to survive even five minutes if I transported there. -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Personally, I wouldn't even want to go to an elite event as a re-enactor. While such a thing would be dazzling to behold as a spectator, it would also probably be replete with overly-talky know-it-alls and stuffy self-rightous prigs and intentionally demeaning jerks. A little of that goes a long way. If that's what they are doing, then they are doing it wrong. First person interpretation means seeing, reacting, and talking as they would have. Long declamations on what they are doing and why and how it is different is as out of place as bucket top boots in the rigging. You just do what you are supposed to be doing, not sitting at a table explaining. That's not to say that you won't occasionally find a spectator with a clue that you can have a period conversation with. I recall a long, in persona conversation with a tourist about the religious differences in the ECW. we must have talked for 20 minutes, him supporting the puritan cause and me supporting the King. But such things are rare. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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