Rats

Flash Guards and Frizzen stalls

40 posts in this topic

Unfathomable to me how untrained people ruin it for everyone simply because of poor training, poor practices or poor supervision.

-- Hurricane

and no bloody common sense...

Edited by Capt. Sterling

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Perhaps it might be a good idea to offer a small informal talk to people interested in acquiring weapons in their future? That way somebody can have the knowledge before they buy rather than trying to teach them after. Some place like PiP where there will be many people, I don't mind helping organize something or even suppling a few different arms that can be used to show differences (I won't have a musket though unless something special happens) in the arms as well as safety devices in weapons. I am no person to give a talk though. A small get together might also be beneficial for those who have bought/brought weapons and want to learn more about what they have.

CS

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At any event there should be time set aside to find out who has shot before, who hasn't, and who just wants a refresher course...Constable Heartless always offers at Blackbeards, we have offered at Pip and we are always prepared to work with our crew when ever they ask at any event... there is always time to teach gun safety and handling... if not make the time...

shooting for the first time, on the field during the battle, just doesn't make sense to me...

Edited by Capt. Sterling

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I so agree, Sterling. Perhaps we can ask Spike to make it part of the schedule. I think a refresher never hurts for people who don't shoot year round. Plus, like the cannon crewe, it's a great way to bring newbies into the fold.

-- Hurricane

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What I like is that it might be able to educate people who have an interest but don't actually have a piece yet. I was raised in California (foothills, Patrick can describe the area) where most everyone learned gun safety and many got their first guns by the 4th and 5th grade. In all my time living there I can't recall a single shooting. The problems always arise when children have not been brought up around guns and never taught safety. When these kids become teens they acquire a piece never having the proper respect and that is where the problem lies. It infuriates me when people go nuts saying guns kill and keeping guns away from children, teach them gun safety and dont let them have a gun until they can show enough responsibility.

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before all these saftey laws....stupid people weeded themselves out.....now with more saftey devices in place...stupid is over running?!?!? :o

darwin must be turning in his grave :lol:

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before all these saftey laws....stupid people weeded themselves out.....now with more saftey devices in place...stupid is over running?!?!? :o

darwin must be turning in his grave :lol:

"Mankind is the only species that protects its stupid examples from the forces of evolution......" I wish I could remember who it was that originally said that !! :o:o

>>>> Cascabel

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I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, but I just checked it out again and saw the discussion... Figured I should weigh in since it's my critter what's started the discussion...

First off, very good points all 'round. Nothing I haven't heard before regarding bridled locks and flashguards directing flame upward intot he shooter's face, but still good points nonetheless. I do agree that shooter education is number one in safety precautions and it frequently overlooked. I wish we had time to make each individual load and fire in front of us, but unfortunately we have to trust crew commanders on that one... I do like the idea of an "education course" at events. Every event should have one somewhere... I'll mark that down for discussion at the next living history event coordinators conference. Good idea...

Now, as far as flashguards... I hate them too... I hate them with a passion for a variaty of reasons. I will agree that they do stop a flash from hitting your neighbor's face in a line-abreast situation, but they do nothing more. Unfortunately, Mark is right... We DO have insurance. If we had been able to afford a fancy policy from a company that knows nothing and charges a fortune, then yes, we would have been able to overlook something like that... However, our insurance comes through the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and is endorsed by the NRA... These guys know guns and they fully understand what reenactments are. They have a very stringent list of rules based on their experiences. My hands are completely tied. In fact, I'm taking a huge chance with the pistols because we made a point of glossing over that part with the insurance folks... Those of you who are familiar with Rev War will know what the NWTA is and how particular they are about safety. We get our insurance from the same company that they do. Lloyd's of London. NWTA doesn't allow pistols. I don't know if that's an organization decision or an insurance company decision, but I didn't want to take that chance. The NRA DID bring up flashguards to me, not the other way around. Flashguards were designed for military units using Brown Bess muskets and Charlevilles. However, if I just required military to have them, the military guys would cry foul and the insurance company would drop us like a hot potato.

So, I infinitely apologize to you all and I will join you in grumbling as I attach a flashguard to my longarms and blunderbuss... (For the record, blunderbusses need flashguards too... Pistols "don't exist" so we will not be requiring them to have the foul devices.)

As a side note... I do understand the bridle issue. To my absolute horror, I once saw a lovely Jim Chambers rifle that had a lock with a hole drilled in the side of the pan to provide a suitable mount for a flashguard... Oh the humanity!! I will not ask you to treat any firelock in such an unholy manner... We have not come to a decision yet as far as what to do with said "unbridled fury", but for this year at least, (officially) we will not allow use of any non-pistol firelocks without a flashguard in place. If it has a bridle, it'd better have a flashguard... Exceptions would include wall guns or a hand cannon. (Those qualify as artillery and artillery do not need flashguards. :P ) Remember, if our insurance gets cancelled, the event dies on the spot.

(feel free to call me if you have any questions or have need of "specific" or "non-official" answers. 812-606-1264)

I do appreciate everyone having such a great and understanding attitude. It's a real headache trying to juggle keeping the insurance company, the State of Indiana, the reenactors, and the public all happy. I truly appreciate your support.

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so...once again....its the issurance companies fault!!

this is whats gets my goat....

everyone wants to improve saftey...we all agree that we dont want to see anyone get hurt...or hurt anyone...or get hurt ourselves....given....but sometimes the changes to saftey just make other injurries!?

for example...off topic.....i climb telephone poles fro a living....have for 15 years now....every year...there are changes to how we do it...and our equipment...for saftey...what we have found is that the new improved changes...actually caused more severe injuries...than the original ideas...so in the 15years...we have come full circle...this years new improved changes are.....go back to what we did 15 years ago...they were fine the way they were!?!?!!

i fully understand the NEED for certain saftey practices...as well as advocate them..but what we cannot have are the insurance companies running our events...we cannot have a few running the majority....we cannot have those who cannot teach...in a seat of leadership.....otherwise all of these hobbies will be run into the ground.

we should always question our methods...as well as those of others....to seek improvements into our hobby....but please i beg you....make sure they are truly improvements....and not (once again)...a way of strangling the events

steps off soap box....and falls of pole...ooof :D

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Dogge,

You do speak truth... But go easy on us event directors... We try very hard, but there are times when our hands are tied...

Try getting the state to budge once they've made a decision. Protest something in a meeting and you suddenly have a site manager looking you in the eye and saying "Do you want to keep permission to HAVE this event?" Or try having them tell you that without an insurance policy, there will be no event... Then face that insurance company and hear them tell you what you will and will not do with your own event. Especially when they often contradict and don't make any sense.

We event coordinators put up with a lot of headaches, backaches, and heartaches to put on a good time for everyone. These things don't just spring up on their own and it isn't just a matter of folks "just showing up with their gear". There's constant communication with the property managers, insurance paperwork, sponsorship requests, fundraiser planning, advertising, and lots more, not to mention making sure that there's room for everybody who registered to actually camp.

It's easily a part-time job, but I don't get paid for it... :) And I run two of these bloody things a year! Plus my real job... :D

Anyway, I will always do the best I can to make sure everyone is safe and has a good time, but I do have to keep the heads happy. Unfortunately, the few DO rule the many and there's nothing I can do about that, though I will continue to throw myself at that brick wall. ;)

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Aye !!!

So many rules and laws are poorly worded and conceived by people that know very little about what they are making rules about, and refuse to listen to those that really know the subject. They seem to not be willing to ask knowledgeable people the simple question, "Will this work, or will it be a hinderance to practicality ?" The problem is very apparent in OSHA regulations and most other "safety" related rules. They usually do not bother to determine if the rule will work well in ALL circumstances, or even if it will work at all !!! Ahhhh.... beaurocracy at it's best, trying to protect us from our own stupidity !! I remember years ago some idiot even trying to get seatbelts mandated on motorcycles........

Thanks fer the loan of yer soapbox, Dogge.....

>>>>> Cascabel

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As long as you HAVE to do it, for those without bridled battery/frizzen pans, you can easily make your own flashguard from sheet brass or copper, and make the attachment to your battery/frizzen spring screw instead of the screw from the pan. I did this with my L&R lock, which is bridled and has an internal frizzen screw threaded to the outside. So I would have to buy a longer screw and an acorn nut to secure the flashguard. I did not want to have to keep changing out the longer screw and nut everytime I used the flash guard (and keeping track of those little pieces!). They already look like crap, so what's the harm in an extra two inches of brass or copper ruining the looks and historical accuracy of a good musket.

If you do not own a spring vise, a small pair of vise-grips with leather protectors works well to hold the spring while you install the flashguard. Just don't pinch it any more than you need to or you'll "set" your spring too weak, or possibly break it.

Just a thought.

Bo

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Dogge,

You do speak truth... But go easy on us event directors... We try very hard, but there are times when our hands are tied...

Try getting the state to budge once they've made a decision. Protest something in a meeting and you suddenly have a site manager looking you in the eye and saying "Do you want to keep permission to HAVE this event?" Or try having them tell you that without an insurance policy, there will be no event... Then face that insurance company and hear them tell you what you will and will not do with your own event. Especially when they often contradict and don't make any sense.

We event coordinators put up with a lot of headaches, backaches, and heartaches to put on a good time for everyone. These things don't just spring up on their own and it isn't just a matter of folks "just showing up with their gear". There's constant communication with the property managers, insurance paperwork, sponsorship requests, fundraiser planning, advertising, and lots more, not to mention making sure that there's room for everybody who registered to actually camp.

It's easily a part-time job, but I don't get paid for it... :) And I run two of these bloody things a year! Plus my real job... :D

Anyway, I will always do the best I can to make sure everyone is safe and has a good time, but I do have to keep the heads happy. Unfortunately, the few DO rule the many and there's nothing I can do about that, though I will continue to throw myself at that brick wall. :D

go easy??...go easy???...i haven't even started yet!!?!? ;)

i too know the trials and tribulations of trying to have the best dang event possible...and costantly having your legs kicked out from underneath ya from ...the folks who give the oks'...who simply have no idea what the hell your tryin to do or understand where your comming from...can be a daunting venture to be sure.

but it is this very reason...that you...i ...and others who take up the reins as it were...and speaking for the rest of us... be the liason 'tween the ones on their side of the desk and ours.....and not just reach some kind of compromise...but an understanding...that we wiill not be ruled by those who dont try and understand the goals and accomplishments of the community as a whole....lest we are all the worse off for it.

so, in short,(too late)...no....i will not be easy on you...or any other event coordinator...including myself and those of my crewe...in our venture ...to be always dilegent in pushing the bars of our hobby/craft.....

i beleive this was allready demonstrated at your event(as an example)...with our hanging...where before it was even seen...ha dmisgings and those against it....but when it was performed....not only was it accepted...but asked to do it again!!!....this has happend nearly evry event we have used the HANGING in several different genres...for the past 12 years...oofff.....and the outcome is always the same...oncet seen.....loved it.....why??...because now they understand it.

imagine all the things that could be accomplished...if first we are allowed to try it...then after a descision could be had....insted of just saying....nope in the begining...how much time that would save.

*side note** :D

these oppinions are for every event...not one in paticular nor any event organiser in paticular....i and the crewe of the Archangel have always supported Nathaniels's endevours as well as the event itself...and only due to scheduling conflicts...have decided to split up he crewe in attendance....and will continue to supprort both Nathaneils and the Paynestown event in the future.

this soapbox...was for all events together...past and future...and as a reminder for those who run them....that you are our liasons...and all your efforts are greatly apprechiated...if not for you (s)..then we would not have any events to call home.

end of side note...resume soapbox..... :D

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Dogge,

I see you've been in the crossfire before as well... My hat's off to you. On a side note, the NMLRA is trying to organize a weekend workshop this winter for event coordinators to trade ideas and form a sort of guild to help each other out... You might be interested. E-mail me if you are...

One thing I find incredibly hard to swallow is when anyone, whether top brass or reenactor, tries to tell me what I have to do at my event. Sometimes I have to just take it, but whenever possible I try to compromise or work it out. Suggestions, on the other hand, especially friendly ones, always get top billing on my list of considerations. This event is in it's infancy still. It is 4 years old, and we've had a lot of hard knocks, but now we are finally getting somewhere with both the state and the CVB, so in future years, the event will only improve. I hope that the big dramas such as no budget (and subsequent camp fees), insurance (and subsequent restrictions), and state/DNR misunderstanding/refusals is over. I think we've hashed out enough over the last 4 years that things are starting to settle in place. I do sincerely appreciate all the help and support I have received from all the varied reenactors that have been to Pirates of Paynetown over the last 4 years. Without this support and understanding, we wouldn't be where we are today. I still have my little list of what could make it better, and we will certainly be working on that, but for now, I hope that everyone will continue to understand why we do what we do.

The hanging is a good example and it did surprise the hell out of me... I never expected such a response from the DNR guys. I wish it were always that easy. I think you are right though... If we could educate the superiors, then we could possibly get somewhere...

Thank-you for the side note... It's nice to know that you guys haven't forgotten me. :D lol!

Maybe someday we can work out the schedule conflict. Unfortunately, there are several local events in the area that have the weekends before and after Paynetown. I don't know what Beufort's flexibility is, but maybe someday we can work it out. Thankfully, for the time being, there seem to be plenty of pirates to go around!

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Well put from both of you!!

A person can learn alot from knowing how and when to listen.

Can't wait to see everyone again and finally meet those I haven't!!

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