It's finnaly over

[JohnnyTarr]

Well the captain is back in American hands. Three pirates are dead and a fourth is captured. Check this comment out though.

Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old self-proclaimed pirate, told The Associated Press from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl, that, "our friends should have done more to kill the captain before they were killed. This will be a good lesson for us."

How do you all feel about this?

[JohnnyTarr]

I found another artical check this out:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514822,00.html

[Silver]

three cheers for the U.S. NAVY!!!

[Silkie McDonough]

I feel that our men should have used force DAYS ago! Does anyone have a good reason that we shouldn't?

[Hawk the QM]

How do you all feel about this?

I feel they are lucky for finding themselves in a political fiasco. Perhaps they'll just do something extremely drastic next time and Americans will have to show we're not going to take any "F'n shyte" from modern pirates.

I'm sure there are political reasons why nations don't step up and deal with them, but it's nothing more then a business of extortion and kidnapping. Every company/nation says "This is ok for you to do" when they pay the pirates off.

To be honest, I don't blame the pirates, I blame people on the seas who don't properly protect themselves. Million dollar vessels and they won't sink 10k on weaponry for self defense. If you swim with sharks, don't blame them if you're caught outside the cage.

Just my two cents.

[Hawk the QM]

I feel that our men should have used force DAYS ago! Does anyone have a good reason that we shouldn't?

Well, the world complains enough about how we "police" the world. It's time they started dealing with their own issues if that's how they feel. No point in getting killed for people that not only don't appreciate it but take a public stance against it.

Sorry for the 2 posts in a row here.

[Graydog]

Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old self-proclaimed pirate, told The Associated Press from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl, that, "our friends should have done more to kill the captain before they were killed. This will be a good lesson for us."

How do you all feel about this?

Spoken just like a local gang leader who saw a fellow gang’s operations get busted, that, or maybe a four year old.

Go ahead, kill hostages, see how much that impacts arming of merchantmen, ransoms, and pirate safe havens. In fact that course of action probably will solve the piracy problem, because it will force the world to stomp it out.

On an also how sweet this is note-

The USS Bainbridge named after Capt Bainbridge USN.

From the USS Bainbridge webpage a bit of history about Capt. Bainbridge:

Then on 20 May 1803, he was ordered to command the PHILADELPHIA, of 44 guns, of Commodore Preble's squadron, fitting out to cruise against, Tripolitan corsairs. On his arrival in the Mediterranean, he captured the Moorish ship-of-war MESH-BOHA, of 22 guns, and recaptured the American brig CELICA from Barbary corsairs. On Bainbridge's arrival off Tripoli he gave chase to a Tripolitan corsair and struck an uncharted rock, on which the PHILADELPHIA was wrecked. Surrounded by Tripolitan gun-boats and forced to surrender, Bainbridge, his officers and crew remained captives in Tripoli for nineteen months. PHILADELPHIA was floated off the rock by the Tripolitans and carried into the port of Tripoli, where she was later burned by American forces led by then Lieutenant Steven Decatur. When peace was restored Bainbridge was acquitted of all blame for the loss of the PHILADELPHIA.

So in 2009 the ship named in his honor was the platform from which modern day pirates were defeated and the freedom of a fellow American restored. Is this not just wonderful? I hope that the crew paints three skulls and cross bones on the bridge, just as if the ship had shot down enemy planes. An upside down broom on the radio mast would also be in order upon return to port.

Hoorah for the Capt Phillips!

Hoorah for the Crew of the Maersk Alabama!

Hoorah for the US Merchant Marine!

Hoorah for the US Navy SEALS!

Hoorah for the crew of the USS Bainbridge!

Hoorah for the US Navy!

Fair winds

-Greydog

[Fox]

The difficulty here is identical to the difficulty faced by the navies trying to suppress piracy in the eighteenth century. The ocean is too big to watch all of it all the time, and the pirates are too mobile. Short of sending several battle fleets into the region (with uncertain prospects of success in any case) there's not much can be done beyond the role already being played by the European, American, Russian, Chinese, and Indian taskforces in the region.

It might also be worth drawing a parallel with the 18th century on the matter of arming ships. 18thC merchantmen were armed as a rule, but they were still taken. Why? Because on the whole the seamen aboard the ships did not want to get into a potentially lethal firefight to protect someone else's property at risk to their own lives. And who can blame them? (FWIW though, I was chatting with the mate of a survey vessel a couple of months back who was heading into dangerous waters, and he told me that the size of his crew had been doubled by the addition of "private security personel", and he'd just had to undertake training in the use of the automatic weaponry which had recently been added to his ship's equipment. His opinion was that his crew would probably not be called on to fight - that would be left to the mercenaries.)

So what worked to end the outbreak of piracy in the early 18thC, and what can we learn from it today? Severe punishment and virtual extermination did not encourage people to stop being pirates, but it did perhaps discourage people from turning pirate in the first place. Such punishment relied on the authorities being able to capture the pirates though. Secondly, the reduction of the pirates' principal bases such as Madagascar and New Providence had the immediate effect to sending all the pirates out to sea where they were harder to catch, but without a base they found it difficult to sustain themselves. Third, and perhaps most importantly, hitting the pirates' economy meant that there was no longer much profit to be had. Colonial markets were strongly discouraged from trading with pirates, and without customers the pirates could not convert their plunder into cash, and had nowhere to spend that cash if they could.

Today, a universal agreement not to deal financially with the pirates, coupled with a more pro-active use of force against the pirates themselves as well as their bases of operation, might achieve similar results, but would undoubtedly involve the spilling of innocent blood. The question is then, are we as a society prepared to make that sacrifice?

[Silkie McDonough]

Thank you Foxe. Then what is to be done? Any educated suggestions that could work?

[Hawk the QM]

Because on the whole the seamen aboard the ships did not want to get into a potentially lethal firefight to protect someone else's property at risk to their own lives. And who can blame them?

Your post was well written, mate. I'm just quoting this little piece to add more opinion.

I would not die for the property of another person. However, I would kill any person that would use my life as a commodity. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a phrase that comes to mind. If you would take a life in your own hands then expect the same but without the obligation of mercy.

Foxe, you're are correct by saying the ocean is just too big to police. It comes down to the question of which is more important, life or merch. If merch, then raid the vessels and take the chances of hostage loss. If life is more important then expect piracy to never end.

"Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding." That may be a lame quote to some but I think it's pretty damn good myself.

[Hawk the QM]

Thank you Foxe. Then what is to be done? Any educated suggestions that could work?

Renewing the act of privateers or contract out to mercenaries. Fight pirates with pirates, as it were.

EDIT:

but this does raise the question of who fits the bill? Another reason I'm all for allowing privateering. It can't be considered war profiteering if no one has actually declared war.

Only America is dumb enough to say something like "War on Terrorism/drugs/violence/gangs/pirates" as if it's an actual declaration.

Is a criminal act against a criminal actually a crime? Only in America but certainly not on the water.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Hawk the QM

[JohnnyTarr]

Wow I did not expect this much response while I was at work. Here are some of the things I heard while listening to the radio. The cargo captains are told not to resist in the hope that nobody will be hurt. Also the crew of most of these cargo carriers do not know how to use guns to the point of being willing to kill anybody. We were not able to use leathal force earlier because of potental political ramafacations. If the pirates start killing the 250 some hostages that they currently have the other governments will blame us. Just something to think about.

[Hawk the QM]

Wow I did not expect this much response while I was at work. Here are some of the things I heard while listening to the radio. The cargo captains are told not to resist in the hope that nobody will be hurt. Also the crew of most of these cargo carriers do not know how to use guns to the point of being willing to kill anybody. We were not able to use leathal force earlier because of potental political ramafacations. If the pirates start killing the 250 some hostages that they currently have the other governments will blame us. Just something to think about.

Truth be told, I wouldn't care what the other governments thought. You either kill the pirates and end the troubles or you pay them off and let them continue. It's not like they are going to say "Well, we made 300 million dollars for that tanker, better quite while we're ahead". They will just continue to do the same thing until it's no longer profitable or the dangers be too great.

These pirates are used by "freedom fighters" to fund their own deeds. As long as they are making money, it will continue.

All I know is it takes very little training to kill someone with a gun. That's why they have children as soldiers in areas like this. One clip holds more bullets then a dingy can carry pirates. If you fight back, who's going to be mad other then dead pirates? This is only true from a non-military stand point.

In a way, it all comes down to the world's fear of "terrorism". What they don't seem to understand is the money they shell out to save their people is used to kill people of other nations anyway. So who is more important? The life of 250 hostages or 250,000 potential victims? 300 Million dollars can kill a lot more people then the ones on a boat in question. Which really means that every government that pays off the pirates either cares more about merch or cares less about foreign peoples.

Again, just my two cents.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Hawk the QM

[Joe Pyrat]

Just a note guys, we don't call 'em "mercenaries" anymore, they are "contractors".

Graydog, I enjoyed your research. Huzzah!

Regarding armed merchantmen, the big problem here is entering a foreign port with weapons aboard. I will probably offload my weapons when I leave US waters, and these are flintlocks. The issue becomes exponentially more complicated when you start talking about automatic weapons.

[Hawk the QM]

Regarding armed merchantmen, the big problem here is entering a foreign port with weapons aboard. I will probably offload my weapons when I leave US waters, and these are flintlocks. The issue becomes exponentially more complicated when you start talking about automatic weapons.

So very true, Joe. This is the same thing as my issues with local gun laws. We are forced to rely on an inferior system that is put in place to protect us. Sadly, this system is unable to protect us at all times yet we are denied the means the protect ourselves.

I have no interest in revenge after I'm dead but that's the sole purpose of the "law". (lets say) A person can't have an automatic weapon. They are then killed by an automatic weapon. The other person is guilty of some law and someone hunts them down. Am I or any other victim any less dead? We don't need justice (which is a fancy word for revenge) we need protection. Most of the time, it's protection from the laws passed by those which are supposed to protect us.

Sorry, now I'm going on a rant so I'll let others say their piece.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Hawk the QM

[Graydog]

Regarding armed merchantmen.

An Armed Merchantman has an actual navy detachment with heavy weapons. For it to enter port is the same as a naval ship entering port. See- US Naval Armed Guard Service of World War II fame. The scheme that has been discussed internationally would have ships pick up a navy dectachment of agreeing nations before entering the pirate area and then depositing them at a nearby port when leaveing the area, they rotate from ship to ship as a military force. This is a military operation with weapons as heavy as TOW's. Two major issues- funding (the biggest bug a boo of all this) and host nations for pickup/drop off locations.

Merchant Sailors with arms is a different kettle of fish and presents all the problems described.

[Hawk the QM]

Regarding armed merchantmen.

An Armed Merchantman has an actual navy detachment with heavy weapons. For it to enter port is the same as a naval ship entering port. See- US Naval Armed Guard Service of World War II fame. The scheme that has been discussed internationally would have ships pick up a navy dectachment of agreeing nations before entering the pirate area and then depositing them at a nearby port when leaveing the area, they rotate from ship to ship as a military force. This is a military operation with weapons as heavy as TOW's. Two major issues- funding (the biggest bug a boo of all this) and host nations for pickup/drop off locations.

Merchant Sailors with arms is a different kettle of fish and presents all the problems described.

Certainly not an easy problem to deal with. I think the bigger problem is the rest of the world like you said. Having auto-weapons on board would just be a nightmare with customs and ports. What is the real danger though, loosing your life to pirates or dealing with moron custom officers? Like any dangerous situation, if you do nothing then you're already a dead hostage. Governments force you not to protect yourself even when they are failures at the job.

It's too bad America is that fearful of war. It's our foundation and the only reason we won't do anything is because we are already broke from a war we shouldn't have started. But that's another conversation entirely.

EDIT:

personally, I feel this is a situation when we need to play hardball. Whichever nations won't allow the required security measures don't need the trade then. If only it was a matter of one dumbass nation, but sadly this is a matter of many vs. one.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Hawk the QM

[Quartermaster James]

Actually, I find this a very complicated topic and one about which I consider myself ill-informed.

Certainly it is easy enough to jump on the "it's a crime and a horrible problem" bandwagon, and I certainly don't want anybody to mistake me for advocating pyracy (I just hate encouraging competition ).

I have to wonder, however, what I would think and feel were I an impoverished Somali, living in a failed state, and carrying the legacy of western governments' and corporations' colonialism and indifference in Africa?

[Hawk the QM]

I have to wonder, however, what I would think and feel were I an impoverished Somali, living in a failed state, and carrying the legacy of western governments' and corporations' colonialism and indifference in Africa?

I would probably do the exact same thing they are doing, to be honest. Their options are basically go with this faction or that one. It's not like they have an exchange program so I do feel for them. Their sad stories aside, it's a dangerous game to use a gun to make a living. That money doesn't even go into the pirates pockets, it goes to the government that is using them to further more war.

If they want kill themselves in a fight for power then so be it. When they involve other nations in a sick game of extortion, they need to be dealt with.

Just my opinion. QMJames, don't feel bad if you think you are "ill-informed", you can still have an opinion. Luckily, this burden doesn't fall on our shoulders.

[Joe Pyrat]

QM James, I find it interesting you brought this up as I had similar thoughts. I have recently started reading The Republic of Pirates which deals with the reasons so many turned to piracy during the GAoP; then as now, there is always two sides to every issue. Which is not to say governments should not defend their citizens on the high seas, but it does indicate the problem is not one that will be solved by force of arms alone.

[oderlesseye]

I find the name of this thread Ironic...

It will never be over... Just Managed.

[Guest]

Foxe, I read you post, and mostly I agree with it....

BUT...

I think if the Sommolli(sp) Pyrates see an American flag (or English).... they should learn really quickly not to mess with them/us.... we should just blow them outta the water..... (sure, it won't stop them... but they should think twice....same thing as back in the GAoP)

Once upon a time, America was a young country... we couldn't afford to pay off he Muslim pyrates.... it was cheaper for us to send in our Marines (from the halls of Montezuma...to the shores of Tripoli...) (yeah, we can quibble about that also... )

We are stuck with the situation.... hey, Somolliia(sp) you deal with the Pyrates, or we will.....

We can't dabble with their politics (well (us) The Americans can't ...we already get in trouble for that...) But who is going to force...set-up...change..... a stable Government on them, so Pyracy is no longer an option? (and especially now that they have seen gay Parie(in reference to Paris)... well now that they have seen the profits they can get from Pyracy....

So, my argument is..... If a ship is flying an American or English flag.... and they try to mess with it.... they will get blown outta the water..... or we will hunt them down....Hey , it ain't nice.... but that's what the Pyrates will learn real quickly... not to attack an American or English ship......

Any Country that won't let an armed Merchant vessel into their port (so they can defend themselves from Pyrates)(oh yeah, and can't figure out how to deal with "locking up said weapons") doesn't need our merchandise, and we don't need theres..... (once again economics....)

How do you stop Pyracy... make it unprofitable......

[Fox]

On a personal level Pat I agree entirely with you. The way piracy was dealt with in the 18thC (and no, it wasn't stopped, but it was 'contained') was to make it dangerous and unprofitable to be a pirate. The same should hold true to day.

I just doubt the abililty of society to deal with the ramifications of that.

[Guest]

I just doubt the abililty of society to deal with the ramifications of that.

Yeah... it ain't PC.....