MorganTyre Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Can someone tell me why the dog-lock evolved into the flintlock? It seems to me the external dog is a more sure-fire safety catch than the internal half-cock mechanism and is certainly easy enough engage. Is there some other advantage to the flintlock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 They actually (if what I have read is correct) developed simultaneously... The "true" flintlock was developed by the French, and the Doglock is an English/Dutch development. The Flintlock probably became the standard because of aesthetics (guessing here). Although (again guessing) the more compact size of the "true" flintlock could have been a part of why it won out as well. I haven't used doglocks too much, but it strikes me that there may be more of a chance of the dog-catch causing the safety to "go on" than the half cock of a "true" flintlock..... Again, please not that this is all my opinion and I might be wrong on a number of things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I love my doglock, but... it is a real pain in the arse. One more thing to fiddle with in the heat of a skirmish. Bad thing. Flintlocks are much more user friendly. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 The modern reproductions are basically a flint lock with a dog added.... Doglocks evolved differently than flintlock. (wot michaelsbagley said) ....But at the time, dog locks had weird internals... basically closer to what a wheel lock used.... unfortunately, they had a bad tendency to go off when jarred... so they added the dog as a safety.... I'll have to look up the actual title of the book ...OK... it's "Arms and Amour in Colonial America" not sure how wrote it though... but there is good information about the development of doglocks and flintlocks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 I love my doglock, but... it is a real pain in the arse. One more thing to fiddle with in the heat of a skirmish. Bad thing. Flintlocks are much more user friendly. We have three dogs and have never hard a problem with them in battle. The safety (dog) needs to be physically engaged to stop firing - otherwise it is just out of the way. Dogs had a distinct advantage. With the dog engaged, a buccaneer could carry the gun loaded on his belt, ready to fire. It can be carried in the full cocked position. Pop the dog off and fire. Tougher (and far more dangerous) to do with a flintlock in the full cocked position. It's strange the other technology caught, flintlocks on - (Betamax vs. VHS) since the dog had a safety and so do modern weapons. Can't imagine a modern pistol without a safety. -- Hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 ...OK... it's "Arms and Amour in Colonial America" not sure how wrote it though... but there is good information about the development of doglocks and flintlocks..... Another good book on the topic is "The Flintlock: It's Development..." By: Torsten Link. You can usually find it on eBay for under $20 ($10 in many cases), and I have noticed many copies in the local overstock cheapo bookstore chain, so that is another place to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Must agree with Hurricane here... I have never had a problem with my dog buss either until the flint cracked... and that was easy to replace... although I have found with some flintlock pistols (as compared to all the Rev. War type Besses and Carbines) that the half cock seems to be the first thing to go when the tumblers wear out and that can be dangerous "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crudbeard Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Must agree with Hurricane here... I have never had a problem with my dog buss either until the flint cracked... and that was easy to replace... although I have found with some flintlock pistols (as compared to all the Rev. War type Besses and Carbines) that the half cock seems to be the first thing to go when the tumblers wear out and that can be dangerous I'm going to chime in here with what me buddy Blair at Loyalist Arms said, the English doglock is the most complicated lock he sells, and is the only lock I have ever sent back to him for adjustment. My guess is that the "dog" may be two different things, the hook that pivots on the lock plate and can engage a notch at the back of the cock and prevent it from falling, or perhaps the tab that protrudes slightly through the lock plate at a right angle and prevents the cock from falling. Anybody know? http://darkrosepirates.com/crew_crudbeard.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Must agree with Hurricane here... I have never had a problem with my dog buss either until the flint cracked... and that was easy to replace... although I have found with some flintlock pistols (as compared to all the Rev. War type Besses and Carbines) that the half cock seems to be the first thing to go when the tumblers wear out and that can be dangerous I'm going to chime in here with what me buddy Blair at Loyalist Arms said, the English doglock is the most complicated lock he sells, and is the only lock I have ever sent back to him for adjustment. My guess is that the "dog" may be two different things, the hook that pivots on the lock plate and can engage a notch at the back of the cock and prevent it from falling, or perhaps the tab that protrudes slightly through the lock plate at a right angle and prevents the cock from falling. Anybody know? The "dog" catch is (as far as I know) only the hook that hold back the "cock" (or hammer for those that prefer modern terminology). There are various styles of doglocks out there. The "English Lock" with the dog catch has a horizontal sear, whereas later doglocks were closer to "true flintlocks" (or French Locks as some called them at that time), with a vertical sear, but without a half cock notch/position on the tumbler. So Doglock has some variety and is not a specific technical term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graydog Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 The one problem I have had with doglocks is if the dog is loose that when shooting down (such as from rigging) one can get a nasty surprise of the dog engaging during the act of firing. One can tell when this occurs as the firer will announce it via the mis-fire procedure command of "Oh, SHITE!" -Greydog Why am I sharing my opinion? Because I am a special snowflake who has an opinion of such import that it must be shared and because people really care what I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pyrat Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Just received the doglock for my blunderbuss (they ship the lock separately) and after reading your post Graydog I did some experimenting. I can see where this might be an issue. If I pull the dog all the way back it stays, but once the lock is installed I think it's going to be loose. Can't wait for the barrel and stock to arrive. Since this is Friday it will, most likely, not be until Monday. The Charles Towne Few - We shall sail... The sea will be our empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 where did ya get yours that they had to shipp seperately??...got mine from Middlesex...just missin the flint and ready to go havent had an issue yet with the dog...even tried it straight down...and no issue....tho i could see if it was a bit loose...have ya tried tighten up a bit?? damn...hate to have to git a dog...for the dog!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 When I bought my Doglock musket from Loyalist Arms, they sent the stock and barrel in one shipment and the lock in another..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pyrat Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Loyalist Arms in Nova Scotia. According to Blair, shipping the lock seperately avoids issues with customs agents who are unfamiliar with the law relating to muzzleloading firearms. The Charles Towne Few - We shall sail... The sea will be our empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Can someone tell me why the dog-lock evolved into the flintlock? It seems to me the external dog is a more sure-fire safety catch than the internal half-cock mechanism and is certainly easy enough engage. Is there some other advantage to the flintlock? Two reasons: 1) The flintlock has fewer parts means that is is cheaper to make. The safety is just an extra notch on the sear instead of a separate part and screw. The English lock, which also has a dog, has even more internal parts. 2) Fewer exposed parts which makes it more reliable on a long-term basis. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster James Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Loyalist Arms in Nova Scotia. According to Blair, shipping the lock seperately avoids issues with customs agents who are unfamiliar with the law relating to muzzleloading firearms. Had a somewhat similar issue when purchasing my fowler from a private party: the postal clerk insisted it had to go through an FFL dealer. Bah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hey... getting two separate shipments was no problem... and I know it just makes shipping so much less of a hustle...... Hey.. it ain't a gun right now... just gun parts..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pyrat Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Aye, but if there's always an idiot bureaucrat somewhere who can mess things up. Hope it gets here on Monday, I can't wait to get me hands on this baby. The Charles Towne Few - We shall sail... The sea will be our empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 The year before last, I wanted to ship my blunderbuss to PiP using UPS... If all the parts were in the package, it was a gun.... And I'd have to ship it overnight.... (so it cost too much .....) I take the lock off it when I pack it to fly (In checked baggage...), and when TSA checks it, they have no idea what they are looking at... just sign the "It's Unloaded" form, and not too much of a hustle...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 The year before last, I wanted to ship my blunderbuss to PiP using UPS... If all the parts were in the package, it was a gun.... And I'd have to ship it overnight.... (so it cost too much .....)I take the lock off it when I pack it to fly (In checked baggage...), and when TSA checks it, they have no idea what they are looking at... just sign the "It's Unloaded" form, and not too much of a hustle...... really?.....i have flown with a duffle bag...a BIG duffle bag...chock full of swords and flintlocks.....i mean full of them....when i checked em....they gott quite the look...well as did i...i was dressed as a pyrate at the time.....but long as i declared them (as reproductions)....on checked bags....no problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The year before last, flying out from PiP... in my checked baggage....I had my buss, two flintlock pistols, assorted knives and my cutlass in a 1/2" pine box (the same one I took this year)...the clerk said she had to check if that was OK....Hey...TSA says it has to be in a hard sided locked case.... I can put it in a plastic shotgun case from Wally-World and it would be no problem.....guess they don't see many home-made "hard sided locked cases made outta 1/2" pine boards and screwed together with one hellovalota wood srcews...)".....Hey...I look up TSA rules before I fly. The biggest problem I've had is some Government agency's "web spider" found one of my post about flying with black powder guns (I posted that they have to be declared, and in checked baggage, and to check out the TSA's web page for more information...) .... so now I'm on one of their "list".... It's a minor annoyance, but somehow You'd think once the "spider found that post, someone would have read what I posted..... This probably should go into the Flying with weapons thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pyrat Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) It's a government agency. What were you expecting, logic? TSA has got a lot better than it was initially but they still don't seem to be able to think for themselves, as your gun case problem demonstrates. Here's a thought Mr. Hand, Take your gun case down to the airport when you have plenty of time and get with the TSA people, an officer or supervisor preferably. Take along the regulation regarding transporting firearms and try and get them to certify your gun case meets the specifications in writing. If they will, put the certification inside the case or laminate a copy to the outside. You might also try contacting them through their website and describing your problem and seeing what they say. You could always print this out and take it along. Usually the Feds are impressed with paperwork. Reminds me of an article years ago describing how to get into the paddocks at La Mans. It was something like pull up to the French police guard. Start hollering in English and waving a bunch of papers in the air, they will usually let you in. The bureaucratic mind at work... Edited February 4, 2009 by Joe Pyrat The Charles Towne Few - We shall sail... The sea will be our empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Well I just moments ago sealed the deal on a Doglock long arm from Middlesex Village.... It should be in my arms by Monday or Tuesday... M.A.d'Dogge, you can have your fishtail back now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster James Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Well I just moments ago sealed the deal on a Doglock long arm from Middlesex Village.... It should be in my arms by Monday or Tuesday... The fowler or the bunderbuss? If the fowler, I'd be interested in swapping range reports with you. Also, again if the fowler, there's some good info on it over at the muzzleloading forum, fyi. Edited February 22, 2009 by Quartermaster James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Hey Quartermaster James, It is indeed the fowler.... I figured as the Red Coat soldier has pretty much become my primary impression a full sized musket would be more appropriate for the more military portrayal than a 'buss or anything like that. I'd appreciate any shooting tips you can provide me with, but I'll likely be using it to "push powder" (re-enactment blank firing) probably about 99% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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