Black Powder Regulations

[Dorian Lasseter]

Safety Zone

Establish a 50-foot wide safety zone between the spectators and the gun. No one is to be forward of the muzzle at any time. Only Association members are to be in this zone unless escorted by an Association member. All pieces shall be brought into battery so that muzzles are in alignment. No muzzle shall be forward of others regardless of the size of the piece. Axel hubs of pieces shall be at least five feet from one another, allowing for free movement around each piece. Changes will be determined by the Safety Officer in charge. No person under the age of 16 shall handle powder. The Safety Officer shall wear some type of distinguishing clothing so that competitors may easily identify him or her.

Taken from;

http://www.americanartillery.org/aaa/marty.html

Granted, these rules are for the 1860s, but it still applies to 1760s, and even 1660s... a great-gun is a great-gun...

Edited January 16, 2009 by Dorian Lasseter

[Hawkyns]

I've worked with pieces only 5 feet apart. It is possible, if the crews are well trained and proficient. Quite honestly, with a crew that does this 2 or 3 times a year, especially if they are using 6 foot tools, they will be in each other's way. For normal battery fire, I require 10 feet betwen hubs.

Hawkyns

[Graydog]

Safety Zone

/agree

You also can be further impacted by local permit authorities requirments. I do a show out here that the fire department requires the public to be no closer than 75 feet from the hub of a cannon (i.e. off to the side) and no closer than 50 feet for a musket.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Graydog

[hurricane]

I didn't mean to set off a firestorm with the 10' remark. And I wasn't referring to cannon, but small arms.

-- Hurricane

[Graydog]

I didn't mean to set off a firestorm with the 10' remark. And I wasn't referring to cannon, but small arms.

-- Hurricane

I think its a good to discuss and show the variety that is out there.

Like the show we do in Long Beach where I have to keep the public 50 feet away from any muskets or pistols. That puts a crimp on what we present. This is the result of "standards" that have been suggested to all Fire Departments in California via the state fire marshal, based on explosives. It’s not a requirement, merely a suggestion so use of it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Of course if I told them the propellant in our black powder guns was smokeless powder with a nice thick wad on top of it (i.e. blow the gun up) I could get a safety zone of just 10 feet. I just love it when the government experts setting requirements are unfamiliar with the area they set requirements for and then hold others to comply. However, I will give them one thing, 50 feet certainly isn't too close, mission accomplished! LOL

I could go on about some other great government regulator folks out here, but I have zero intent to hijack the thread, so I won't. LOL

Edited January 16, 2009 by Graydog

[Hawkyns]

10 feet still twitches me with small arms. If you have a single demo with a couple of people to watch the crowd while you watch what you are doing, maybe. On my own, trying to talk and demo while watching what I'm doing and trying to watch the crowd at the same time, I'd feel they were too close. Watching your muzzle while you pour powder gives some fruitcake plenty of time to cross that 10 feet and get up close and personal. Plus, I've seen bandoliers chainfire and powder horns go off on the belt. It's OK for me and my crew to take the risk, but I don't really want the public that close if something goes south in a hurry.

Hawkyns

[Graydog]

Plus, I've seen bandoliers chainfire and powder horns go off on the belt.

Hawkyns

I am just interested, how did the horn on a belt detonate? We have a member that says he has seen two horns that have detonated while loading from them (fire up the powdertain and then pow), but that’s different than being passively on a belt. Was the cap left off the horn? Did a flash cut through the side of the horn? Did they come in contact with an electrical source? How about I quit speculating and wait for the answer!

(Oh, and just to add, our group doesn't use horns or bandoliers, but we are around groups that do and not using a horn to load is a mantra with them.)

Thanks in advance.

[michaelsbagley]

10 feet still twitches me with small arms. If you have a single demo with a couple of people to watch the crowd while you watch what you are doing, maybe. On my own, trying to talk and demo while watching what I'm doing and trying to watch the crowd at the same time, I'd feel they were too close. Watching your muzzle while you pour powder gives some fruitcake plenty of time to cross that 10 feet and get up close and personal. Plus, I've seen bandoliers chainfire and powder horns go off on the belt. It's OK for me and my crew to take the risk, but I don't really want the public that close if something goes south in a hurry.

Hawkyns

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I thought that powder horns were not in favour for re-enactment firing. I thought it was almost a "standard" (as standard as anything gets in re-enacting) that powder horn were only worn as decoration and that rolled cartridges were almost used exclusively. Or is your lot a bit of an exception to the rule Hawkyns? Not trying to pass judgement, I just think I may have a bit of a misconception that I would prefer to have cleard up.

Cheers

[hurricane]

Harry and the BIBs do a superb job of ensuring everything is done safely there and I haven't seen a problem in the 7 years I've been there. There are people assigned to keeping the crowd behind the line, plus all of us are charged with stopping the entire firing of all weapons if there is a breech in safety. We all take safety very seriously at PiP. No one is talking and demo'ing at the same time. The cannons are fired, then the call to move small arms to the line is made and they move up in a section separate from the cannon. All of us follow exacting procedures that the fort has set up that they use at all of their events.

-- Hurricane

Edited January 16, 2009 by hurricane

[Graydog]

Let me clarify the mantra on horns for out here:

1. Pour measure from horn into seperate measuring device.

2. Use the measuring device to load the barrel.

Horns are used here to carry powder. They just don't load directly from the horn.

Which is the same standard on many live fire ranges.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Graydog

[Hawkyns]

It was in 17th century, a few years back. We load from the bandolier and the corporals carry a flask to reload the bandoliers. Trapezoid flask with a brass valve, not a horn as you think of in 18th century. Our best guess is that some sparks from the match flew off and landed in the spout of the brass flask. Whether it wasn't completely closed or whether there was enough powder debris to flash it and set the main body off we don't know. The flask had a blowout panel and he was wearing a buff coat over wool breeches, so all he got was a scorched buff coat and a bruised hip. Fortunately.

The bandolier chainfire happened in England. Again, some ill tended match and a bandolier with bottles that didin't close well.

Maybe it's me, but doing 16/17th century using matchlocks and bandoliers has made me paranoid when it comes to safety. Probably something to do with having lit match in one hand, powder in the other, and doing it in a block of a dozen or more troops. In 25 years, I've seen a lot. From this stuff to being on the receiving end when a cannon crew screwed up, put a lot of prime behind an unpierced charge, and shot the main charge at us intact and smoking. I've seen groups that go to the field with multiple guns and not enough tools and crew to completly outfit each gun, people lean over the touch hole when firing "to keep the rain off it", and Goddess knows what else. What scares me is that probably 80% of the screwups I have seen have been at pirate festivals and ren faires. I love doing the pirate guns, but I feel a lot safer when I'm in the line with military unit that trains together regularly and is used to firing in battle.

Hawkyns

[Graydog]

Thank you very much for the explination on the flask!

-Greydog

Edited January 16, 2009 by Graydog

[theM.A.dDogge]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I thought that powder horns were not in favour for re-enactment firing. I thought it was almost a "standard" (as standard as anything gets in re-enacting) that powder horn were only worn as decoration and that rolled cartridges were almost used exclusively. Or is your lot a bit of an exception to the rule Hawkyns? Not trying to pass judgement, I just think I may have a bit of a misconception that I would prefer to have cleard up.

Cheers

again depends on the time period portrayed....but paper cartridges are not the standard...but extremely popular as it were....but again the standard for shooting with a flask...is as stated....pour to measured device...then barrel....ie....chargers,measure, horn measures...what have ya.

in fact i have seen a trend to go paper-less"....because of complaints off wadding left behind.....from park staff and event organizers...not necessarily from re-enactors.

[Captain Jim]

...From this stuff to being on the receiving end when a cannon crew screwed up, put a lot of prime behind an unpierced charge, and shot the main charge at us intact and smoking... Hawkyns

OK, that's a new one. I've seen and read of many cannon screw-ups, as a matter of "take note and don't do that yourself", but that one has to be unique.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Captain Jim

[Dorian Lasseter]

...From this stuff to being on the receiving end when a cannon crew screwed up, put a lot of prime behind an unpierced charge, and shot the main charge at us intact and smoking... Hawkyns

OK, that's a new one. I've seen and read of many cannon screw-ups, as a matter of "take note and don't do that yourself", but that one has to be unique.

Actually Jim, that's what happened here, but not so extreme at PIP 2007...

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/Sil...ent=RUNNNNN.flv

The last cannon to fire actually 'puffed' out the main charge and it flared/flashed right at the muzzle...

The Gun Commander made a bit of a joke about it, "Oooo, Extra!", but it could have been bad...

[Captain Jim]

I was actually there that year but I was being fired at at the time and so missed that. Thanks for the link.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Quite welcome, Cap'n...

Having that 'caught on film', is something to use as an aid to safety.

Now, since I wasn't there and don't know what procedures were used, I can't say why that happened, only speculate.

1. Was the charge in a foil pack and when the prick was used it did not peirce the foil, but instead just pushed it down, giving a cavity for the priming powder to settle?

2. Was there somehow a void in the charge that caused part of it to force out the other half, causing it to burn outside the barrel?

3. Was their too wet a sponge used and thus water left in the barrel, when the charge was rammed, the foil opened up allowing water to foul some of the powder and the same as #2 occurred?

Many possibilities...

Thus, the reason for good safety practices are such a concern, as well as standard procedures.

I enjoy firing the guns, great and small, and would hate to see anyone hurt, and thus having the ability to do artillery removed from any event.

Slainte,

Dorian

[Hawkyns]

On the one that was shot at us, we detrmined it was the result of two things.

1) The gun was an old bronze tube, 19th c, that had been fired a lot and not well treated. The touchhole was shot out and had formed a cone shaped cavity on the inside. Not visible from the outside, but should have been caught if a proper gun inspection was done.

2) The charge was not rammed home hard enough. This allowed the cartridge to be deformed instead of pierced when the prick went down. I've seen this happen before with new or inexperienced crews. They are nervous about the ramming and therefore don't seat the charge fully, being anxious to get their hand out of the way.

The combination of these two things allowed the vent tender to drop about 400 grains beihnd the charge. For some reason (inxperience?) it never occurred to him that 400 grains was too much. No warning bells went off.

Hawkyns

[Dorian Lasseter]

400 grains?!?!

Good gods...

The first gun I crewed, for safety, we put 4F in these;

http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?c...products_id=348

Aye, needle cases... they only hold a small amount, but plenty for what you should need to pour down the touchhole.

If you poured a whole case in and still had no overflow, even the novice would see a problem.

[William Brand]

Black Powder is the lighter fluid and gasoline of the re-enacting community, at least among the inexperienced. I've seen people dump copious amounts of gasoline or lighter fluid on wood to 'start a fire', forgetting that the basic principle of fire is the initial spark and control more than the volume. I've seen the same thing with black powder rifles when people are going for the boom and blast of 'the real thing', or at least the real thing as they perceive it should be.

We should keep a running thread of failures and mistakes to demonstrate all that can, may and will go wrong when someone isn't properly instructed.

[Cascabel]

Black Powder is the lighter fluid and gasoline of the re-enacting community, at least among the inexperienced. I've seen people dump copious amounts of gasoline or lighter fluid on wood to 'start a fire', forgetting that the basic principle of fire is the initial spark and control more than the volume. I've seen the same thing with black powder rifles when people are going for the boom and blast of 'the real thing', or at least the real thing as they perceive it should be.

This is a paragraph from my 'Flintlocks 101' article that I wrote for No Quarter Given regarding proper powder charges :

"You absolutely do not want to be so loud as to cause ear damage !!!!! This seems to be an on-going problem with some people that seem to think that it is important to have the LOUDEST gun on the crew, or some other such foolishness. This is an extremely bad practice from several standpoints. It is EXTREMELY inconsiderate to your fellow pirates to deliberately do something that is causing discomfort and a high likelihood of permanent ear damage. It is not at all amusing, and if you seem to get more than a few complaints or remarks about how loud your weapon is, you need to lower your powder charge or change your loading procedure. If you are causing ringing ears, you can also leave yourself, your re-enactment group, and the event open to personal injury lawsuits by members of the public. A few such incidents can get firing banned from our events. THINK !!!!!! Excessive charges, if carried to the extreme, can blow a gun apart with all sorts of immediate and on-going consequences. Don’t be the one that brings trouble on to everyone !!! Measure your charges, and keep them reasonable."

>>>> Cascabel

[callenish gunner]

"You absolutely do not want to be so loud as to cause ear damage !!!!! This seems to be an on-going problem with some people that seem to think that it is important to have the LOUDEST gun on the crew, or some other such foolishness. This is an extremely bad practice from several standpoints. It is EXTREMELY inconsiderate to your fellow pirates to deliberately do something that is causing discomfort and a high likelihood of permanent ear damage. It is not at all amusing, and if you seem to get more than a few complaints or remarks about how loud your weapon is, you need to lower your powder charge or change your loading procedure. If you are causing ringing ears, you can also leave yourself, your re-enactment group, and the event open to personal injury lawsuits by members of the public. A few such incidents can get firing banned from our events. THINK !!!!!! Excessive charges, if carried to the extreme, can blow a gun apart with all sorts of immediate and on-going consequences. Don’t be the one that brings trouble on to everyone !!! Measure your charges, and keep them reasonable."

>>>> Cascabel

AMEN!!! Better 1000 lighter loads than the one that gets somebody hurt!

[Patrick Hand]

ok.... I gotta add my two cents here.... remember the thread I started about a safe powder charge....? it was because I had been to too many reenactments... OK... Pyrate Faires... where everyone was loading and wadding their guns....(ramrods and such...) (I can fire less powder with a wad, and make it sound "nice".....but as BlackJohn and others pointed out... it isn't nessicaraly that safe.....)

OK...after some thought.... I argue.. the callibur of the gun + 50%(ore less). is a safe blank charge....I'm firing a 72 callibur gun... so 80- 90 grains of black powder (well....thats less than 150%) makes a nice loud "boom... hey it works....not too loud... but a nice happily report.....ain't that what we want......? and I'm not waisting (to much) powder....

I like the idea that we are working this out.... what is a safe charge to load with.... then, we can make it (kinda) a standard ......

dang.. we don't want anyone to get hurt.... but we still wanna have fun.....(and make good happy loud booms...)

[hurricane]

We have the Loyalist 62 cal doglocks. We use a 70 grains for priming the pan and the charge itself. No wad. It makes a great sound. We originally started with 90 but it didn't give us that much more bang for the buck, so to speak.

-- Hurricane

Edited January 19, 2009 by hurricane

[Cascabel]

The correct blank charge will vary, depending on both caliber and barrel length. There is no one "correct" charge for all weapons. I usually advise one grain per caliber as a starting point, and increase from there until a decent "boom" is achieved with no wadding. Usually it winds up about the ratio that Patrick uses, around 150% of the caliber in grains or less, but again, it varies with bore size and barrel length. Shorter barrels or smaller bores require less powder. An excess of powder is blown out of the barrel un-burned, or burns after leaving the barrel as a large muzzle flash, both of which are wasteful. A compressed load with a wad, of course requires less powder, but I always advocate going wadless for many reasons. A word of caution to the "newbies"..... A live load with a ball is an entirely different matter. There is considerably less powder used !!!!

You eventually get to a "point of diminishing returns", where an increase in powder results in very little increase in sound, until you get to an ear ringing volume rather suddenly. At that point, you are not only wasting powder, but entering the realm of ear damage.

>>>> Cascabel