Mission Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Well there are palms that are not coconut palms. And there are many different varieties of coconut palms. Although you should be cautious when reading terms in period manuscripts. Their terminology is spotty to say the least. Unless I can recognize what an author is talking about from his description, I just accept that it's some type of what he's describing and don't read much more into it than that. Being no expert in horticulture, I just accept that he is talking about some form of coconut. (If the editor is really good, they'll often tell you what the modern terminology is for the thing an author is talking about.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) I think he mean coconuts palms as one thing and palms as other ( so his definition of palms included those palms which were not coconut palms (coconut tree is just one palm) Edited June 13, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 http://www.wdl.org/en/item/252/zoom/#group=1&page=35 lol this is getting odd now I am talking about plants .. but 17th C protagonist has put coconut palm among other palms. see somewhere near of page 50. "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Lol I meant botanist not protagonist "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 From the account of Sir Francis Drake entitled by Walter Bigges' 1583 A Summarie And True Discourse Of Sir Francis Drake's West-Indian Voyage by Walter Bigges: “Somewhat above the Towne [st. Jago] on the North side betweene the two Mountaines, the valley waxeth somewhat larger then ac the Townes end which Valley is wholly converted into Gardens and Orchards well replenished with diverse sorts of Fruites, Herbes and Trees, as Lymons, Oranges, Sugar Canes, Cochars or Cochos-Nuts, Plantens, Potato-roots, Cocombers, small and round Onyons, Garlike, and some other things not now remembred, amongst which Chochos-nuts and Plantens are very pleasant Fruits, the said Cochos having a hard shell and a greene Huske over it, as hath our Walnut but it farre exceedeth in greatnesse, for this Cochos in his greene huske is bigger then any mans two Fists, of the hard shell many drinking Cups are made here in England, and set in Silver as I have often seen. Next within this hard shell is a white rine, resembling in shew very much, even as any thing may doe, to the white of an Egge when it is hardboyled. And within this white of the Nut lyeth a water, which is whitish and very cleere, to the quantity of halfe a pint or there abouts, which water and white rine before spoken of, are both of a very coole fresh taste, and as pleasing as any thing may be. I have heard some hold opinion, that it is very restorative. The Planten groweth in Cods, somewhat like to Beans, but is bigger and longer, and much more thicke together on the stalke, and when it waxeth ripe, the meate which filleth the rine of the Cod becometh yellow, and is exceeding sweet and pleasant.” (Bigges, p. 13) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlubbersanonymous Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) This was something that surfaced during our studies last year. We had a link to a cool illustrated poster showing assorted samples of different coconuts but it has since vanished. If it resurfaces, we'll post it. "Cocos nucifera Linn. was introduced to Mexico by Spanish navigators in the middle of the 16th century, from Cape Verde and Santo Domingo to the Atlantic coast, and from the Solomon Islands and the Philippines to the Pacific coast. These populations remained isolated from one another for almost 500 years. Morphological studies on fruit characteristics show that coconuts from the two populations are contrasting forms. The Atlantic coast populations show a wild type fruit, with angular shape, thick husk, thick shell, thick endosperm and low water content. The Pacific populations have a domesticated type fruit, with fruit and nut more spherical, with a much thinner husk and shell, and higher water content. The higher variability observed in the Pacific coast raises the possibility of later introductions, also from the Philippines or other Pacific islands." - Economic Botany, 1993 New York Botanical Garden Press Edited June 15, 2012 by landlubbersanonymous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) So wiki was indeed rigth cocos palm as we know it was not natural to the caribbean (but there were over 3000 native or endemic palm species there and many of them are related to cocos) Columbus in his journal (if it is the real one) said http://www.sonofthes...urnal-diary.htm The Admiral says that " he never beheld such a beautiful place (Cuba), with trees bordering the river, handsome, green, and different from ours, having fruits and flowers each one according to its nature. There are many birds, which sing very sweetly. There are a great number of palm-trees of a different kind from those in Guinea and from ours, of a middling height, the trunks without that covering, and the leaves very large, with which they (natives) thatch their houses Edited June 15, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMike Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 "Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?" Sorry, someone had to throw that in there... Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Well coconuts can go to island to other and since they can travel even in salty water. Also people have carried them so migrateindeed.... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlubbersanonymous Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 "Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?" Sorry, someone had to throw that in there... Well coconuts can go to island to other and since they can travel even in salty water. Also people have carried them so migrateindeed.... MadMike was making a silly film reference. (In Finnish... Monty Python Hullu Maailma... niellä ja kookos) Google translation rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 "Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?" Sorry, someone had to throw that in there... Well coconuts can go to island to other and since they can travel even in salty water. Also people have carried them so migrateindeed.... MadMike was making a silly film reference. (In Finnish... Monty Python Hullu Maailma... niellä ja kookos) Google translation rocks. Oh I am well aware of Monty Pyton that was a nice film.... and birds did it! "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grymm Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Don't forget the fancy carved silver and gold mounted coconut cups and mazers that get used in Europe from about mid 14thC Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Another fine mazer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Wonderful! I may have to write an article about coconuts and bananas. There's so much good stuff out there. Here's a bit from Sir Francis Drake's Famous Voyage Round the World by Francis Pretty. (1580): "Amongst other things we found here a kind of fruit called cocos, which because it is not commonly known with us in England, I thought good to make some description of it. The tree beareth no leaves nor branches, but at the very top the fruit groweth in clusters, hard at the top of the stem of the tree, as big every several fruit as a man's head ; but having taken off the uttermost bark, which you shall find to be very full of strings or sinews, as I may term them, you shall come to a hard shell, which may hold in quantity of liquor a pint commonly, or some a quart, and some less. Within that shell, of the thickness of half-an-inch good, you shall have a kind of hard substance and very white, no less good and sweet than almonds ; within that again, a certain clear liquor, which being drunk, you shall not only find it very delicate and sweet, but most comfortable and cordial." (Pretty, p. 5) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 It seems that coconut trees were become so oldinary in West- Indies by 17th Century that they was as natural part of the Caribbean than indians were http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~43~230235:-Du-cocos--?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=q:cocos;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=6&trs=16 http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~6276~9660004:-Du-Cocos,-&-du-Cacao--?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=q:cocos;sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=3&trs=16 and even botamy books of the period talk like they were popular in caribbean (with other palms) but they were not native in there (unlike over 3000 other palm species). "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 If you think about it, a tree is only native to one spot - the place where the very first one grew. Every other spot is non-native. (And when the first one grew there, it was an invasive species.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 hmmm quite true Well cocos has speard in caribbean because of the humans so it is not moved there naturally... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Birds often get credited for spreading seeds and that seems to be OK. Humans are just another animal, like birds, and are a natural part of the environment, so what difference does who put the first seed there? (I have never understood the snapshot theory of the environment. Like all of life (and history), the environment is operated on by so many factors you couldn't comprehend them all if they were listed for you. Like all of life (and not so much history - well, at least past history) the environment is forever in flux, being impacted and operated upon by millions of theoretical butterflies flapping millions of theoretical wings.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 well you are rigth indeed "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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