Patrick Hand

Minimum Garb Standards

138 posts in this topic

welll i did say "cap".....if not a cap then what sort of hat for a female, working class wench

Ye ships potter,

Salty

Proposed Women's garb thread started for further discussion on the topic

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Ahoy!

Well My Boyfirend has been posting and taking part in all the rukus here for some time. I have been doing all sorts of piratey things and although I at one point had an email addy from this site I never did much here for posting. Well he has been for some time slowly working me into it, as I do do re-enacting and such like he does, I am also currently going back to school (must have been insane to decide to do such a thing) for history and Costume Studies. SO he has been making me poke around these threads as of late and looking at what people have to say and such. SO I thought that I would figet around in here a bit indeed. Oh my Boyfirend is that friendly chap Calicojack...suprisingly quiet here as I have hard times keeping him quiet usually. :lol:

Well I do have to say I think minimum standards are important for a historical re-enactment. there is so much misconceptions among even those claiming to be professionals that it is sometimes more detrimental to the cause of accuracy and history, and what I mean by this is teaching the public and educating them well, that I think it is important that there is a very firm and distinct line drawn between waht is ok and what is not.

I have a few times gone to things that are supposed to represent pirates as they are to find the "Ren faire" pirates is what the public is getting. Now I have no problem with Ren pirates and have my own Ren garb too but I think when your in a position of trying to educate the public of a historical truth rather than just entertain you need to make the modicum effort of getting some facts and assemble a reasonable facsimile of truthful dress.

Now I voulenteer at a Maritime museum doing Dressup and such and they have the minumum Kit that they give out to those dressing up for them and I think it is a good standard to go by for many.

For men-

Shirt-linen if possible but cotton or a linnen blend will do must be button up with a collar White or Checkered

Breeches, Trousers, Slops- Depends on what would have been more common to the time period your doing but for most any of those three will work. Wool if possible for the Breeches and canvas will make do on all Breeches and trousers should be white, Slops as Well can be white, striped made from sail ticking is also common.

Waistcoat- these change depending on the time but most men would be considered naked in just their shirt, can get away with this if not on land or doing "dirty" work as Waistcoats where far to valuble to soil. Waistcoats should be wool and can be made do with canvas, they are very easy to make as well. Waistcoats common colour would be dark blue or brown if navy or an officer they would be white.

hat-men do not go out of doors bareheaded. A wool cap (monmouth style if possible), staw hat, or tricorn, or tarred canvas hat. The wool cap is the easiset for people to get as it is easy to get a cheat there use a dark or light coloured winter knitted hat with no fancy knitting or pompom.

Sailors have the advantage of going barefoot- so unless you feel it nessecary you can always do so easily. If not Buckle shoes and knee socks are the options. Any plain solid and not radical coloured Kneesocks will do but stripes are fun when you can get them.

Buckle shoes are the most expensive things to get. Around 100 bucks from most places.

The extra accessories? Neckerchief a square of fabric to tie around your neck like a bandanna. Or a cravat, more expensive.

A short Jacket- Umless your a captain or some flouncy officer short jackets are best. Stay out of the way and are practical, they also look spiffy! usually wool of a dark colour and Navy if your doing Navy. canvas again will do for staying low cost.

The shirt can be bought cheaply, the hat you might have at home, the waistcoat is suprisingly easy and inexpensive to make as are slops!

Avoid wearing belts with tons of things on them! On ship things are stowed and always close at hand, pirates and sailors alike rarely carried little more on them than what they needed to hand atm.

I will include a picture of me in a most basic costume...it is a very bad pic of me...as it was a very hot day. sadly I am not wearing a waistcoat as it was very hot and was wearing the Short jacket which would be hiding it from view anyways.

Sorry for the wall of text, hope i gave something useful to the convo.

piccys114.jpg

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Red Sea Trade.... you rock! :lol:

LMAO! :lol:

What a perfect analogy for a hat!!!

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Okay since we are speaking authentic basics, I'll stick my neck out here.... our crew is allowed to join and take one year to get their proper kit together, until that time, we always point out to spectators who, in our crew, is currently proper and who isn't....

for men: and I am talking basic able seaman here, not captains, not merchants, not local magistrates etc...

Shirt LINEN... why waste money on a cotton shirt when linen can be found almost as cheap, ... sure it will be a tad bit more, but why waste money buying the wrong thing first and then have to spend again to get it right? Shirts should be pull over, not button up the front, with a slightly higher collar than a band, not as long as the Rev War fold overs. See either the instructions in Rural Pennsylvania Clothing or go hereLinen Fabric for not only GREAT prices on linen but Kass's shirt instruction. shirt

Trousers/slops/breeches: Again Linen... cheapest.. or hemp canvas or if you wish to spend the money 100% wool especially for the breeches.

Sailor's jacket to start... you can always get the longer justacorps at a later date...

Buckled shoes: Sorry if we are speaking authentic here buckled shoes are the very best way to go... not boots and the hemp rope sandals that some were using are no longer being made...(at least they weren't the last time I looked a month ago) FugaweeShoes has some that are close without breaking the bank... for the very best, one must turn to the UK but unfortunately they are expensive... and although I am not against folks going barefoot ON LAND... I adhere to the belief that shoes are a MUST onboard ship

Monmouth cap/thrum cap/or simple cocked hat

Neck scarf... linen ... sorry but I think these things are a MUST especially at the hot summer events

Unfortunately no one is making proper stockings as of yet, unless Kass hasn't posted some new surprise as of yet... but I would recommend the heavier woolen ones from Townsend and just sew up your own back seam until the proper ones become available.

Now you can either sew your own... and believe me the shirts and trousers are NOT as hard as they seem... and can all be done by hand which is actually authentic as compared to wondering how to operate a sewing machine. Patterns can be purchased from Kass (Reconstructing History) or ready made clothing can be purchased from Reconstructing History or Callenish Gunner.

When in doubt, go check out the Admiralty Slops Contract info in Twill... that is actual clothing from the period for RN sailors...for example the contract of 1706. I believe calls for Grey jackets NOT navy blue... and red for waistcoats

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billysneaking1.jpg

Honestly, I am not certain that Tiger Bill's cap is proper for our time frame... I think they came later and would be grateful to anyone that can confirm that for me...

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Hmm I thought it might be helpful to give some accurate pictures of hats to give people an idea of what to look for.

If interrested I will also get the ingredients and recipe used for tarring, unless it is already posted here somewhere for those who want to tar ditty bags or of course hats.

I know it is red ocre, pine tar, and something else too but what I can't rember nor can I remeber the proportions. Just remebr doing tarring in a well ventalated place is best and it takes days to dry!

SO here are the hat pics. I tried to show pictures of actual hats but where I could not find them I will show repro's

here is the ever beloved and known tricorn

piccys050.jpg

here is a tarred hat

piccys053.jpg

HalifaxChangingoftheGuard069.jpg

here is a monmouth cap in grey modeled by the handsome CalicoJack

piccys001.jpg

and here is a straw hat, this one is actually from a bit later it is from the 1830's but was the best I could find to give you an idea of what to look for. This one is far to tall for starters For the correct hat wear one that is no deeper than say a tricorn would sit on your head, also the rim of the straw hat could go a bit wider. beware of going to wide though or it might just start looking like an untied ladies hat. If large enough you can also cock up the sides. I know it is at times a tradition to wear the rippbons with your ship name on them but I am not sure when that tradition came in.

piccys086.jpg

this is accurate but hard to see as it is on a boy in the background

HalifaxChangingoftheGuard166.jpg

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although I am not against folks going barefoot ON LAND... I adhere to the belief that shoes are a MUST onboard ship

Monmouth cap/thrum cap/or simple cocked hat

Hm ... I think you got your shoes backwards - that is to say, shoeless on deck is why holystoning exists. Leather shoes on salt-spray decks quickly leads to no shoes. Barefoot in the ratlines seems to be more common historically. And again, you don't holystone the deck to keep splinters out of the sailors' soles, but rather out of their feet. Shoeless on land is what would be odd....

[Edit: In the many discussions on the topic in Captain Twill, visual and documentary evidence is available to support the idea that some sailors wore shoes on deck, whilst others were barefoot. Rather than discount either set of evidence arbitrarily, the assumption must be that both were options.]

As far as the hats, the Monmouth is the best , and covers a VERY broad historical period. It is however a pattern that is [legally] very tightly controlled, and thus potentially quite expensive for those living outside the UK. Lots of "fakes" are readily available, even as patterns off the internet. Like real linen [blends and fakes can be as cheap as a dollar or three a yard, where real linen is often 12 dollars or more the yard, which is no small difference for many who are not exceeding wealthy]. The Monmouth is reasonably "fake"able, however, and a number of folks can give good ways to fake the cap [whether by knittiong a SIMILAR but not exact pattern, or by using a lanolin-in wool tuque and wearing the fold on the inside].

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although I am not against folks going barefoot ON LAND... I adhere to the belief that shoes are a MUST onboard ship

Monmouth cap/thrum cap/or simple cocked hat

Hm ... I think you got your shoes backwards - that is to say, shoeless on deck is why holystoning exists. Leather shoes on salt-spray decks quickly leads to no shoes. Barefoot in the ratlines seems to be more common historically. And again, you don't holystone the deck to keep splinters out of the sailors' soles, but rather out of their feet. Shoeless on land is what would be odd....

I think I will refer you to the debates over in Captain Twill regarding barefeet on ships... like I said, I adhere to the belief that barefeet, especially in the riggings just doesn't work...along with a number of others in the pub, we have actually been there and done that... shoes in our opinion are a must and there is quiet a bit of historical evidence for shoes as opposed to barefeet. Again, see the threads in Twill.

Not going shoeless in town, yes I wholeheartedly agree, but shoeless on the beach such as a careening camp... try walking back and forth in sand all day long in buckled shoes and then try doing it in buckled shoes in wet sand... even worse... do I take my shoes off in either case... no... I portray an officer.... Again, for the historical reasons as to why I adhere to my opinion feel free to look up the threads in Captain Twill where the historical evidence is discussed... certainly not here in plunder.

As for monmouth caps... our's are taken from period correct instructions and only cost 25 bucks a cap

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Honestly, I am not certain that Tiger Bill's cap is proper for our time frame... I think they came later and would be grateful to anyone that can confirm that for me...

Well for a look at Stocking Caps and where they come from, check out

http://www.nachtanz.org/SReed/thesis/sdreedthesis.pdf

Stocking caps are specifically explained and explored starting page 33. As regards Stocking Caps such as this one, the thesis comes to the conclusion that they were still rare in the 1490s and early 1500s. In part this was geographical, being most common in Burgundy/Flanders/Netherlands.

Red was more common than brown as you near 1500 [though was common, apparently, from 1400 on at least], and red more common than brown in Burgundy/Flanders/Netherlands as well. Most Stocking Hats had tassels, again looking at 1490 to 1519. Not sure that the info confirms anything for anyone, save that between 1490 and 1519, the woolen stocking hat with tassel, in red or brown, with limited decoration, was appropriate. Honestly says nothing for 1729, of course.

One more source gives that hat style as accurate for GAoP. It's a re-enacting group, admittedly, as well, but supporting evidence: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheArchangel...tes_privateers/

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I was reading through the Minimum Garb Standards for Women thread, and you gotta admit, that men's minimum garb is much easier...... :ph34r:

LINEN vs. COTTON

As Capt Sterling posted (and others, I've agrues this one for awhile) If you get a linen shirt, you wont be spending money on cotton and then spend more money later when you get a linen shirt, So why buy two shirts ?. If you are buying a shirt, or know exactly what you are doing, this is good advice.

I argue that you can get cotton for $2.00 (or less a yard) and make a shirt... and figure out if it fits right (kind of a learning experience).... now you have something to wear (and use for your measurements) untill you make a good linen shirt. I figure $6.00 and some time, then I won't make any mistakes on good fabric. (for a shirt, this isn't much of a problem,,,but when you start making more complex garb it's something to think about...)

I would not suggest buying a cotton shirt tho..... why spent the $40 + for something your going to replace sooner or later.....

Linen isn't that expensive..... $5.33 to $8.20 a yard.....

http://www.fabrics-store.com/first.php?menu=h

AND linen IS more comfortable than cotton......

So a checkered cotton shirt will cost $6.00,

and a checkered linen one $24.60

(Unfortunatly the checkered linen I liked was more expensive @ $8.20 a yard)

By Going with cotton first and then Linen cost me $30.60.... But I had a cotton shirt to give to another reenactor......

There are some advantages to using period fabric.... other than it's PC... but it's also more comfortable..... I have a cotton waistcoat, and my new wool lined with linen one is suprisingly cooler to wear........

When someone is just starting, I think the proper period cut is more important than the fabric content.

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Linen is more comfortable and it actually breathes better than most modern cottons... which there have been numerous discussions on as to whether or not our modern cottons even come close to period correct cottons of the time frame...

FWIW in our group we allow cheap cotton shirts for the kids... as one they wreck most of them before they ever grow out of them so they are nearly impossible to pass along to another child.

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One more source gives that hat style as accurate for GAoP.  It's a re-enacting group, admittedly, as well, but supporting evidence: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheArchangel...tes_privateers/

Snigger tis my crewe.... and I still question the stocking cap with the long tassel for the GAoP time frame...haven't spent the time researching them when Monmouth caps are so easy... Maddogge just doesn't have one yet as Skittles is still knitting a bunch...

if you want to look at reenactors with great kit and good information check out Blackjohn's Pirate Brethren and Gentlemen of Fortune's site...and Reconstructing History (especially for Women)

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f you want to look at reenactors with great kit and good information check out Blackjohn's Pirate Brethren and Gentlemen of Fortune's site...and Reconstructing History (especially for Women)

This isn't realy a problem, but the pictures on those pages, in this and in the Scummy Crew thread are showing garb that is above the minimum standard..... "the good stuff".....

I wanted to point this out, so it dosen't discourage anyone that is just starting....

I figure that starting with Minimum Standard Garb, and then adding to it or modifying it, someone can end up with "the good stuff".... it just takes some time....

I might have to take some pictures and post 'em.... for examples...... B)

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Okay our basics... for kids... Mr. Merriweather the younger top shot... being my kid, his trousers and waistcoat are proper patterns, although I oversized them hoping they will last UNTIL he outgrows them and made of linen but his shirt is cotton... everything that you cannot see on his clothing is machine sewn

p8103259.jpg

New to our crew is Charlie in the next photo on the far right... standing next to Pete Straw our navigator. Most of his stuff isn't pc, but sure looks good enough to get him started...

IMG_2811.jpg

Also another new member Matt Bottles to the far left in the blue checked shirt... I believe it is cotton but certainly does for us for a new member. I am not even sure what his trousers are made up of, but for a start they look good enough to me. Maddogge in the center is what folks would eventually want to aim for... although even the Archangel crew has a long way to go...

IMG_2821.jpg

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Aye, it's cotton, Captain. I only got it because I was unable to finish my linen shirt in time; Jas. Townsend guaranteed it at my door in two days (which they delivered); and I have a good friend I'm trying to seduce into the hobby myself, and figured (like Mr. Hand) an extra shirt to lend someone is a nice little bonus.

Oh, and the slops are 100% linen. Not natural color like I thought when I bought them, but dyed gray. In any case, they are remarkably comfortable.

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Oh, and the slops are 100% linen. Not natural like I thought, but dyed gray. In any case, they are remarkably comfortable.

Yah... linen is more comfortable than cotton.... and Hemp is fantastic.....

The advantage to cotton is that it is cheap....

The advantage to period fabrics ....is that they are... well.....more period, and as an added benifit, more comfortable.....

Someone just starting out can use this information, and decide for themselves how they want to apply it.....

I think information (and passing it on) is very important....

Just saying "get a period shirt" isn't enough, but showing what to look for will be very helpfull...

(Now I have this image of a Not Period, lace-up puffy sleaved Seinfield shirt, and a bunch jokes going through my head..... B) )

I have to get back to work.... but I want to take some pictures of the "garb parts" so I can post them.....

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if you want to look at reenactors with great kit and good information check out Blackjohn's Pirate Brethren...

Hey, thanks for the plug! I appreciate it!

:lol:B):huh:

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This isn't realy a problem, but the pictures on those pages, in this and in the Scummy Crew thread are showing garb that is above the minimum standard..... "the good stuff".....

Two of my favorite crew members, one a great new guy who has only been doing pirate for about a year...

plantation_munk001.jpg

The other I have been reenacting with since 1982...

plantation_dray001.jpg

I wouldn't say either has clothing above the minimum standard.

Fwiw, real grime doesn't show up well in long shot photographs. I have an up close photo of my shirt to prove it, if anyone cares to see a photo of an unwashed pirate shirt.

B)

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GREAT Photos, Blackjohn! :lol:

Can you be at PyrateCon in New Orleans next year, to teach these Johnny Depp lookalikes what REAL pirates, REALLY looked like? B)

Capt. William

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Last year at PiP we talked about this... (NOTE: this only applies to what is now the 1729 Careening Camp)

It is amusing that the 9 and the 0 are too close together on the keyboard. Everyone is calling the 1720 camp the 1729 camp lately.

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Dang..... I missed that.......

Yah..... the 9 and 0 key are too close together........ :blink:

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PiP 2006 was my first shot at the kit for a man. It was down and dirty but they didn't kick me out.

MinimumKit.jpg

The shirt is linen because I happen to have enough for a shirt on hand. I used the Simplicity Jack Sparrow pattern. It is surprisingly fairly close to accurate. Well accurate enough for a beginner. ...I suggest washing the sizing out before you wear it because that stuff keeps the heat in.

The slops are cotton twill. My own pattern, draw string. I did not hem them. I also did not fell fold the seams and they are starting to come apart.

The socks are cotton, bought them there. I also have a pair of mens sports socks that I tea stained and they work well also.

The hat was an old grass hat that I had already. I just cocked it.

The frog for my cutlass was a braided belt. At a distance it went unnoticed.

The shoe's are NOT correct but they are leather saddles and they have a big buckle. :blink:

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Yah..... the 9 and 0 key are too close together........ :lol:

Aha! Well, that makes a difference. I'm on more certain ground with costuming approaching the "French and Indian War" period in the middle of the century. Ten years' difference makes a small difference for men's, and likely a large difference for women's costuming. Still, I'll now start thinking 1720 instead of 1729.

My own pirate interests are principally Ned Low and company [spriggs, etc]. That hits as late as 1725. Heck, Low only hit Shelburne NS in 1722. As such, I just figured that you folks had some local pirate down there in the late year of 1729, and were using him as a template for the camp.

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Last year at PiP we talked about this... (NOTE: this only applies to what is now the 1729 Careening Camp)

It is amusing that the 9 and the 0 are too close together on the keyboard. Everyone is calling the 1720 camp the 1729 camp lately.

Close enough! <_<

Capt. William

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GREAT Photos, Blackjohn! B)

Can you be at PyrateCon in New Orleans next year, to teach these Johnny Depp lookalikes what REAL pirates, REALLY looked like? :rolleyes:

Capt. William

Thanks.

Hey, if someone invited me, and in compensation for any teaching I might do paid my travel expenses and hotel, I'd consider it.

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