Uniform colors?

[michaelsbagley]

Let's start you off with This Topic on the Pub...

From there, I can help you a whole bunch more. Look up the "Belheim Tapestries" as they have some pretty decent images of Grenadiers, in fact Grenadiers are likely the easiest type of unit to document (visually) because of the Blenheim Tapestries. Now of course those are 1700 to 1710 Grenadiers rather than the 1690 to 1700 you seem to be focused on, but it is the best start I can advise you on.

On the whole, documenting soldiers of the GAoP is not an easy task (I've been at it for what, three years now?) unless you are going for a French Marine of the 1690 to 1710 era, then there are very nice clear and concise images you can draw from, but anything else, involves a lot of in depth looking, and then a lot of careful guesswork.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Let's start you off with This Topic on the Pub...

From there, I can help you a whole bunch more. Look up the "Belheim Tapestries" as they have some pretty decent images of Grenadiers, in fact Grenadiers are likely the easiest type of unit to document (visually) because of the Blenheim Tapestries. Now of course those are 1700 to 1710 Grenadiers rather than the 1690 to 1700 you seem to be focused on, but it is the best start I can advise you on.

On the whole, documenting soldiers of the GAoP is not an easy task (I've been at it for what, three years now?) unless you are going for a French Marine of the 1690 to 1710 era, then there are very nice clear and concise images you can draw from, but anything else, involves a lot of in depth looking, and then a lot of careful guesswork.

THANKS! I thought there was a discussion on this - very helpful! Thanks again!

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

What can anyone tell me about this Grenadier's turnbacks? One appears to be white, and one blue.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ivan Henry aka Moose

[michaelsbagley]

What can anyone tell me about this Grenadier's turnbacks? One appears to be white, and one blue.

As much as I have looked at that image, this is first I have noticed that! My guess is that it is an artist rendition error, and that both turn-backs should be blue.... But who knows?

Another thing that sticks out to me here, is that the breeches seem to be white (or off-white) instead of blue. In my research, breech and waistcoat colour seems to only count for the initial issue of a uniform, and subsequent waistcoats and/or breeches may have been drawn from personal sources and may not have matched unit colours.

It's really cool that you want to do a Grenadier impression. You're the first one I know of on this continent who is working towards it (or even seriously thinking about working towards it). I always thought the grenadier uniform to be one of the coolest looking in the period, except the hat... I am not a fan of the mitre style hat.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

What can anyone tell me about this Grenadier's turnbacks? One appears to be white, and one blue.

As much as I have looked at that image, this is first I have noticed that! My guess is that it is an artist rendition error, and that both turn-backs should be blue.... But who knows?

Another thing that sticks out to me here, is that the breeches seem to be white (or off-white) instead of blue. In my research, breech and waistcoat colour seems to only count for the initial issue of a uniform, and subsequent waistcoats and/or breeches may have been drawn from personal sources and may not have matched unit colours.

It's really cool that you want to do a Grenadier impression. You're the first one I know of on this continent who is working towards it (or even seriously thinking about working towards it). I always thought the grenadier uniform to be one of the coolest looking in the period, except the hat... I am not a fan of the mitre style hat.

Well I read that Grenadiers were often among the tallest soldiers. Tall guys with tall hats looked imposing. Being 6' 3" I figured this would be appropriate I am even thinking of working it into my character's history as well. For now, it will either be grenadier or marine. I like this a good bit. I have also found some images of Grenadiers without the giant miter cap.

Here's a grenadier without the huge miter:

Edited June 23, 2010 by Ivan Henry aka Moose

[michaelsbagley]

Well I read that Grenadiers were often among the tallest soldiers. Tall guys with tall hats looked imposing. Being 6' 3" I figured this would be appropriate I am even thinking of working it into my character's history as well. For now, it will either be grenadier or marine. I like this a good bit. I have also found some images of Grenadiers without the giant miter cap.

I've heard the "Grenadiers being the tallest" thing widely touted in Rev-War, F&IW, and War of 1812 circles... So I do tend to believe it, even though I have yet to see (likely because I haven't thought to look) any period sources that validate it.

While I don't like the super tall mitre hats, I do like the Marine cap in the image you just showed. My problem is when I first started going down this road, it was almost impossible for me to find any really good info on period marines, and I was finding lots of good references to "Foote Guard" (infantry), so I just went with that as being the easiest (well the easiest that wasn't grenadier ). Personally, I think you would make a great Grenadier, and with your preference for fancier clothing, it would be a good look for you! That and I just think it would be really cool to have someone doing a good grenadier portrayal! (read as peer pressure! )

The one cool thing about doing soldier impressions, is that many of the items can easily be reused. When I finish my version two infantry uniform, I could likely also use it to pull off a marine impression with just a different hat, and maybe a few other accessories. The Grenadier would require a new coat and hat (and maybe waistcoat too) which is a fair bit more work, but still much less than making whole new outfits.

And that image of the Grenadier with the yellow facing is actually a lot cooler looking than the Blenheim Tapestry ones, it almost uses the "Marine style" cap...

So what unit and facing colours are you considering?

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Well I read that Grenadiers were often among the tallest soldiers. Tall guys with tall hats looked imposing. Being 6' 3" I figured this would be appropriate I am even thinking of working it into my character's history as well. For now, it will either be grenadier or marine. I like this a good bit. I have also found some images of Grenadiers without the giant miter cap.

I've heard the "Grenadiers being the tallest" thing widely touted in Rev-War, F&IW, and War of 1812 circles... So I do tend to believe it, even though I have yet to see (likely because I haven't thought to look) any period sources that validate it.

While I don't like the super tall mitre hats, I do like the Marine cap in the image you just showed. My problem is when I first started going down this road, it was almost impossible for me to find any really good info on period marines, and I was finding lots of good references to "Foote Guard" (infantry), so I just went with that as being the easiest (well the easiest that wasn't grenadier ). Personally, I think you would make a great Grenadier, and with your preference for fancier clothing, it would be a good look for you! That and I just think it would be really cool to have someone doing a good grenadier portrayal! (read as peer pressure! )

The one cool thing about doing soldier impressions, is that many of the items can easily be reused. When I finish my version two infantry uniform, I could likely also use it to pull off a marine impression with just a different hat, and maybe a few other accessories. The Grenadier would require a new coat and hat (and maybe waistcoat too) which is a fair bit more work, but still much less than making whole new outfits.

And that image of the Grenadier with the yellow facing is actually a lot cooler looking than the Blenheim Tapestry ones, it almost uses the "Marine style" cap...

So what unit and facing colours are you considering?

Not sure - Ivan Henry is England born, Boston resident, shop owner turned privateer. I have not decided if i want to work a pre-move to the colonies stint in the military or a post-move thing. So my unit colors would probably be driven by location. What do you think? It would be a little useless though to do a unit that didn't see action in the Caribbean or the early Colonies. I would look really lost and literally out of place at any reenactment...

[michaelsbagley]

Not sure - Ivan Henry is England born, Boston resident, shop owner turned privateer. I have not decided if i want to work a pre-move to the colonies stint in the military or a post-move thing. So my unit colors would probably be driven by location. What do you think? It would be a little useless though to do a unit that didn't see action in the Caribbean or the early Colonies. I would look really lost and literally out of place at any reenactment...

Hmmmm, working a uniform into the "Ivan Henry" concept could be a bit more difficult. But using blue facings is one of the easiest routes I have found. Royal units (any unit with Royal in the title, with perhaps the exception of Artillery) and Independent companies (which were pretty widely spread around the colonies and Caribbean) both used blue facings. White, Yellow, and Green seem to be the other most common colours, but even Orange and sea-foam (green-blue) and other colours were used.

Personally, I pirate as "Mickey Souris" (a Frenchie, or an English/French cross depending on which mood hits me) and I use Michael "Mickey" Surrey (an Englishman) when I do solider (the two names are almost pronouced the same give or take the accent). I tend to reinvent my character (when I even bother with it) for each event. I like the concept of an ongoing character concept, but that isn't a strength of mine, so I tend to avoid it.

I just had a look back, and the link to Lee Offen's "British Regulars in America, 1664-1714" that I posted in this post, seems to be broken and the document not there. It had a really detailed list of units, locations and colours of facings. I am going to have look for it again, and see if I can post the new location of it (if it still exists). Maybe Lee will let me repost the document on my web site or on yours (or both).

Edit: This doesn't look like I remember it, but it is by Lee Offen and has most of the same information on it...

Linkity Link

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Not sure - Ivan Henry is England born, Boston resident, shop owner turned privateer. I have not decided if i want to work a pre-move to the colonies stint in the military or a post-move thing. So my unit colors would probably be driven by location. What do you think? It would be a little useless though to do a unit that didn't see action in the Caribbean or the early Colonies. I would look really lost and literally out of place at any reenactment...

Hmmmm, working a uniform into the "Ivan Henry" concept could be a bit more difficult. But using blue facings is one of the easiest routes I have found. Royal units (any unit with Royal in the title, with perhaps the exception of Artillery) and Independent companies (which were pretty widely spread around the colonies and Caribbean) both used blue facings. White, Yellow, and Green seem to be the other most common colours, but even Orange and sea-foam (green-blue) and other colours were used.

Personally, I pirate as "Mickey Souris" (a Frenchie, or an English/French cross depending on which mood hits me) and I use Michael "Mickey" Surrey (an Englishman) when I do solider (the two names are almost pronouced the same give or take the accent). I tend to reinvent my character (when I even bother with it) for each event. I like the concept of an ongoing character concept, but that isn't a strength of mine, so I tend to avoid it.

I just had a look back, and the link to Lee Offen's "British Regulars in America, 1664-1714" that I posted in this post, seems to be broken and the document not there. It had a really detailed list of units, locations and colours of facings. I am going to have look for it again, and see if I can post the new location of it (if it still exists). Maybe Lee will let me repost the document on my web site or on yours (or both).

Edit: This doesn't look like I remember it, but it is by Lee Offen and has most of the same information on it...

Here's an excellent link:

The British Military Presence in America, 1660-1720

Linkity Link

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

I know - I am supposed to be an "expert" on muskets and things, but I do find conflicting research from time to time. Who can tell me if this: Early Doglock would be good for a 1690s era British Marine or Grenadier. PErsonally I think the mechanism is good for the period, but the fishtail stock would be a bit earlier. I did read that many muskets in the late 1600's British military were often mismatch and sundry sorts of weapons.

If not, then what would be a correct musket for grenadiers / marines of the late 1600s?

[michaelsbagley]

I know - I am supposed to be an "expert" on muskets and things, but I do find conflicting research from time to time. Who can tell me if this: Early Doglock would be good for a 1690s era British Marine or Grenadier. PErsonally I think the mechanism is good for the period, but the fishtail stock would be a bit earlier. I did read that many muskets in the late 1600's British military were often mismatch and sundry sorts of weapons.

If not, then what would be a correct musket for grenadiers / marines of the late 1600s?

The Early Doglock, would work.... specially for a colonial soldier because, as you said, there was quite a mismatch of weapons and so-forth... But I really think the later 17th century Doglock Carbine would be more ideal (you know, the one you are having such a hard time getting in. ). Failing that, if you can find a first model Brown Bess (the one with the wooden ramrod), they look close enough to the Queen Anne era infantry musket (in my opinion) to pass of well. In fact if you can find a first model Bess with the wooden ramrod and no King George cypher on the lock-plate I think it would be just about perfect. Actually I just had a look at your French Model 1696 musket and it looks almost perfect except for the fact it has a "pied de vache" style butt instead of the more english style (look at your english doglock blunderbuss for comparison).

The Williamite era muskets had a more flat lockplate than the Besses (I have some images in a book somewhere if you want to see one), so it would be hard to find a production musket to match that look specifically. So pretty much unless you go with a custome musket you will have to choose your compromise.

[michaelsbagley]

Geez, It's amazing what I had forgotten that I had... The below Google Book is really cool and needs to be shared.

English Army Lists and Commissions 1664 - 1714 - volume 5 - By: Charles Dalton

I haven't read it yet, but I have had the web page bookmarked for who knows how long. I have skimmed it a little, and not seen a great deal of info on what the units had or used, but it does give rally good insight into the ratios of officers and what ratios of what ranks etc. And there is even some information on Marines in there! I am going to have to get reading this one soon.

You know Dana, you really got me to being back interested in this again and wanting to focus on it again!

Edit: Having a decompression moment, and thought I would see if I could find volumes one to four.... And found volume six instead...

English Army Lists and Commissions 1664 - 1714 - volume 6 - By: Charles Dalton

And finally found volume one...

English Army Lists and Commissions 1664 - 1714 - volume 1 - By: Charles Dalton

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

http://www.kipar.org...nadier_1704.jpg

Not quite within your parameters but close (1704). Then here's a more modern painting that supposedly shows some mid-17th century grenadiers: http://img9.imagesha...782/jakob30.jpg

Cheers,

Adam C.

Thanks! I really like the second one - I am looking at developing something right a long those lines!

[Fox]

Has this picture been trotted out yet? It is from (IIRC) the early 1690s, and the guy on the left is probably a grenadier

[michaelsbagley]

Has this picture been trotted out yet? It is from (IIRC) the early 1690s, and the guy on the left is probably a grenadier

That one has been posted in the long ongoing discussion on uniforms I linked earlier in this thread... But it is well worth mentioning here again, as the leftmost soldier does look like a grenadier (as you said Foxe).

On that note, would you guys be okay if I merged this discussion with the ongoing soldier thread? Or would you prefer to keep the more Grenadier topic seperate?No pressure either way, just thought I would throw that out there.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Thanks Foxe - I have seen that one - it is really great. Now I am working towards finding what (non-independent) companies in the Colonies from 1690-1700 would have had grenadiers assigned to their units. THis stuff is really fun - I do enjoy researching this stuff!

and I don't mind if it merges - my apologies for starting a separate thread.

[Cascabel]

Has this picture been trotted out yet? It is from (IIRC) the early 1690s, and the guy on the left is probably a grenadier

What makes the guy on the left a grenadier ? They all seem similarly equipped to me.....

>>>> Cascabel

[callenish gunner]

His headgear is more helmet like that hat ...that was one description of the grenadiers at least from what I've read

[Fox]

What makes the guy on the left a grenadier ? They all seem similarly equipped to me.....

His hat, as Hugh says, appear to be an early form of mitre cap, such as worn by grenadiers. However, now you mention the equipment, I notice that he has no visible bag for grenades. This may be an artist's omission of course, but it does open the possibility that he's a marine, who also wore mitre caps.

[Iron Hand]

Well I read that Grenadiers were often among the tallest soldiers. Tall guys with tall hats looked imposing. Being 6' 3" I figured this would be appropriate I am even thinking of working it into my character's history as well. For now, it will either be grenadier or marine. I like this a good bit. I have also found some images of Grenadiers without the giant miter cap.

I've heard the "Grenadiers being the tallest" thing widely touted in Rev-War, F&IW, and War of 1812 circles... So I do tend to believe it, even though I have yet to see (likely because I haven't thought to look) any period sources that validate it.

While I don't like the super tall mitre hats, I do like the Marine cap in the image you just showed. My problem is when I first started going down this road, it was almost impossible for me to find any really good info on period marines, and I was finding lots of good references to "Foote Guard" (infantry), so I just went with that as being the easiest (well the easiest that wasn't grenadier ). Personally, I think you would make a great Grenadier, and with your preference for fancier clothing, it would be a good look for you! That and I just think it would be really cool to have someone doing a good grenadier portrayal! (read as peer pressure! )

The one cool thing about doing soldier impressions, is that many of the items can easily be reused. When I finish my version two infantry uniform, I could likely also use it to pull off a marine impression with just a different hat, and maybe a few other accessories. The Grenadier would require a new coat and hat (and maybe waistcoat too) which is a fair bit more work, but still much less than making whole new outfits.

And that image of the Grenadier with the yellow facing is actually a lot cooler looking than the Blenheim Tapestry ones, it almost uses the "Marine style" cap...

So what unit and facing colours are you considering?

Not sure - Ivan Henry is England born, Boston resident, shop owner turned privateer. I have not decided if i want to work a pre-move to the colonies stint in the military or a post-move thing. So my unit colors would probably be driven by location. What do you think? It would be a little useless though to do a unit that didn't see action in the Caribbean or the early Colonies. I would look really lost and literally out of place at any reenactment...

I've stood in Line of Battle against Grenadiers and fusiliers. They are big and Scary....Ya got to realize that hat adds a good 12 to 18 inches in height. In a day when the average enlisted man was 5'2" and yes they were 6' or taller for Grenadiers, that's almost 3 foot taller than most soldiers. i had a video of meself facing them holdin' me video cam....and I was shakin'....i don't scare easy either....

[captscurvy_nc]

1 and a half bottles of 90 proof parrot bay cocunut rum, a pair of shears and 12 yards of red cotton, 6 yards of black and a box of 300 buttons. Not sure what uniform this is gonna fit in yet but I can't stop working on it. It's 2 am and I just can't put it away. this will be one interesting coat. Wonder if I'll remember making it in the morning...

[michaelsbagley]

captscurvy_nc, can't wait to see how it turns out for you! You will post some pics when you are done?

I was browsing around the B. Blacks and Sons web site (on of the better online sources for wool IMHO), and I noticed they are carrying a new colour in their wool coating/melton, "Red Clay" (called "Pompeian Red" in the description below the name) which if you ask me, looks a fair bit closer to madder than any colour they have previously carried. It is heavy stuff, and likely pretty close to a good weight for a period soldier's coat.

B. Blacks & Sons - Clay Red wool coating/melton

[blackjohn]

now you mention the equipment, I notice that he has no visible bag for grenades.

Nor does he have a case for his slow match.

[Bos'n Cross]

Though digging up and olde thread..... does anyone have any images of the mitre cap worn by marines? or is it pretty much just the same as the grenadier? Over all, the infomation is there for infantry, not so much is coming up on marines(possibly because it would seem that there were not many of them).

Edited November 3, 2010 by Bos'n Cross

[wes1761]

If you look at Moose's post, the upper portion of the uniform lapel is white, but the lower (our right side) side shows blue.....I am wondering if the artist was trying to show the light shining on it??? His Mitre cap shows some white as well...light sun shining on it....

Edited November 3, 2010 by wes1761