William Brand Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 I should like to discuss the widespread subject of parcels, bags, wallets, sacks and the like. For example, the haversack. When did it first come into use? Or the snapsack? Or the Townsman's Wallet? Frankly, I would like images and historical examples of the earliest use of every item used as luggage or purse, i.e., haversacks, hunting bags, wallets, pouches, ditty bags, snapsacks, etc. Any help would be appreciated and period sources would be most appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Ah, one of the great under-discussed and under-researched subjects... Here's some for you. The Haycock slop shop inventory of 1699 lists "hawking bags". I've not yet found a GAoP era depiction of a hawking bag, but modern hawking bags are pretty much identical to this 16thC example. If we step just beyond the GAoP and into the 1730s we see examples of seamen with long snapsacks: And into the 1740s: However, snapsacks can be dated right back to the beginning of the GAoP (1690s) on landsmen: The square shoulder bag can be seen at least as early as the 1670s Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 & All wallets from the V&A. The top leather wallet is is dated 1705. The bottom leather wallet is from the late 17th century. The green wallet is from 1748. Both leather wallets are believed to have been made in Turkey... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Some thing to carry stuff in? I'm not sure how period SeaBags are , nor Ditty bags.... but they are so dang simple to make that I can't beleave they just "sprang" from nothing... and then where "just "discovered" in the 1740's..... A bag.... (depending on scale... Big= Seabag.. smaller= dittybag...) something to carry stuff in... OK.. maybe not the elaborate knotwork for the lanyard (heck in the early 1700's they couldn't tie knots...right?) Dang.... I'm rattling.... I am going to write and post in plunder on how to make one(Sea bags , and Ditty bags....).... maybe not period, but they work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Pat, given the similarities in shape I suspect that the classic "ditty bag" evolved from the snapsack. In fact, I'm not convinced there is enough difference between the two to even think of them as different items. The overtly decorative knotwork that we see on later seamen's artifacts seems to have been a fashion which developed in the later 18th century and reached its heyday in the 19th. We do know that knots were used generally for decorative purposes during the GAoP, just apparently not in such complex forms or to such an extent as later. I'm sure that having some sort of well-dressed end to the drawstrings of a bag, and a turks' head woggle to pull them closed would be quite likely. (Since we don't have a period bag to compare this is obviously just speculation based on the use of knots elsewhere in the period). Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 I have a "market wallet" from Wilde's Weavery that I picked as a prize in a shoot last month. It is of linen and they do their own research and weaving. I gave it to my son, so as soon as he gets home from his mothers house, I will post photos of it. William, I suppose you are trying to decide what to hang from the tumpline that I will be sending out tomorrow? I had visioned a snapsack from some of Kass's hemp canvas. I will be making one as well for myself. Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted December 27, 2006 Author Share Posted December 27, 2006 William, I suppose you are trying to decide what to hang from the tumpline that I will be sending out tomorrow?I had visioned a snapsack from some of Kass's hemp canvas. I will be making one as well for myself. Bo Actually, my mother-in-law bought me a powder horn, so I will probably use the trumpline for that. My main reason for the thread is actually covered by Gentleman of Fortune, for as he states, the subject is "one of the great under-discussed and under-researched subjects" and as such it needs to be researched. With the development of so many kits and camps for re-enactments, luggage and carrying bags must be brought under the scrutiny of the enthusiasts, so that we can instruct new pirates and ourselves on the best period items for kit. Example, I am a big fan of leather hunting bags, but I've had trouble discovering a period bag before the French and Indian War. Common sense says that they must have existed, but I prefer replication to speculation whenever possible. We are also making canvas bags from hemp (see the kass thread on hemp canvas), so we are hoping to reseach the subject in time to make some matching snapsacks and other bags prior to PIP next year. All hand sewn and tailored. EDIT: I meant to quote Foxe above, not GoF. I'm an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 William! How cool is that! Kass Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted December 27, 2006 Author Share Posted December 27, 2006 Well, Kass. I am hoping that it is very cool. Have you given any more thought to patterns? <<<<said with a very hopeful lilt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Oh most assuredly I have, William! I think it's a brilliant idea and I've put it in the pipeline. Just don't expect them next week. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted December 27, 2006 Author Share Posted December 27, 2006 I don't want them by next week. I want you to take your time. This is one item everyone can make and wear. Not too expensive. Functional. Please take all the time you need. Though the sooner the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Yup. Understood. I'll work on them in my breaks between other things. :) Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Jim Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 You get breaks? I thought you said your boss was a cast-iron Bi....Uhm, never mind... I'll be on that list, too. I need to re-do evrything before PiP. My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 <snicker> Well, Jim, you'll notice that I'm working on my breaks... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Jim Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Well, then, carry on in your self loathing. And get back to work, we're waiting for stuff... My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Oh no, Jim. I love my boss. Doesn't make her not a bi_ch! Now back to the salt mines... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 A market wallet, 38 inches by 12 inches. Walnut dyed linen. The slit in the center is hand stiched, but the edges are machine sewn. It was a "blanket prize" at an annual event I attend every November. I will stuff it full of gear and show it over the shoulder should anyone wish to see it so. Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Well when I finished the garb for my crew going to PiP, I made a bunch of shoulder bags. Without any pockets in any of the clothing we needed somthing to carry our stuff in. Shoulder bag Not sure how acurate they might be but they suited our purposes well. I would love to find out what would work for the period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 My main reason for the thread is actually covered by Gentleman of Fortune, for as he states, the subject is "one of the great under-discussed and under-researched subjects" That's the second time this month Greg and I have been mistaken for one another! It's very easy. Greg is tall, fair, and hansome; I am tall-but-not-quite-as-tall, dark, and beardy. Greg left, Kass (shorter, dark, beautiful) centre, Foxe right. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 I though GoF was 6 foot something... So how tall does that make Kass....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 OK where are you? I want to go there and shop. Just seeing the rolls and rolls of fabric behind you makes me drool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Well I'm 6'1"... Amanjiria, the photo was taken at the Reenactors' Market at Coventry earlier this year. IIRC the photographer had his back to a musket stall, and I bought a GAoP hanger about three stalls down... Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 I though GoF was 6 foot something... So how tall does that make Kass....? I LOVE that picture. I look so tiny and petite and feminine... :) Greg has got to be 6'4" or something. Foxe is 6'1". I'm 5'8" but I think I have better posture than Foxe. Jack, that's my living room! Doesn't everyone have rolls and rolls of silk as "decor"? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 A rose between two thorns! I suspect I was stooping under the weight of all those books you bought Kass Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Don't you mean the voice of sanity keeping you two from buying every shiny pointy thing in sight? I think you were bowed under the weight of having to put up with me for two weeks. And as I remember, I carried my own books in my HUGE Kass-green bag! :) Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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