Mission Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 I promised BlackJohn I was going to post this. Let me apologize in advance... So, I've been studying Chaos Theory lately and it got me to thinking about the workings of the human brain. Nobody is really sure how our minds work, they are sort of a black box, even to the experts. At first, I thought perhaps our minds behaved in a manner that defied mathematics. Then I realized that this takes us away from the realm of science and into the realm of mysticism. However, trusting in mysticism as an answer is a sure sign of ignorance (IMHO - feel free to take offense and write long diatribes defending mysticism. Perhaps that is what this topic is for.) So we come back to mathematics. This is where Chaos Theory comes in. Chaos Theory attempts, on some levels, to find some order in non-linear results of systems of equations. These are notoriously difficult to solve using normal mathematical procedures. Part of Chaos Theory suggests that they actually have an underlying order that is more an matter of repetition through scaling. What appears at one level reappears succesively at other levels as well. Our brains may be organized in this fashion, or at least in tune at some deep level with these sort of systems, as well. Many biological systems are fractal in nature (fractals essentially being a graphic representation of the sytems of non-linear equations and the order order that underlies chaos.) Some interesting ideas came out of the books I'm reading from noted Chaos theorists and I started link them together. Mitchell Feigenbaum studied this idea of scale in great detail, trying to understand at what point of distance an object becomes incomprehensible to us. This lead him to wonder about the brain's machinery of perception. How does it function? How do we sort the information that is constantly flowing into our minds? Some psychologists refer to humans as "deletion creatures." That is, we only perceive what our minds suggest is important to us. We somehow delete the things (sounds, movement, visually perceived objects) that are not important to us for the task at hand. Of course, the "task at hand" is defined by our minds. Feigenbaum felt that the brain, with its imaginative capability, adaptability and perception, seemed to be more flexible than classic physics and mathematics could describe. This process of deletion may offer an example of how attuned our minds are to chaos mathematics. Hmm. Sounds like gobbledegook. Let me offer an example. If you're focusing on a discussion with your friend in a restaurant, you are sorting out what is important (your friend - her words, ideas, appearance) from what is not (the hustle and bustle of sounds and people in the restaurant that are not coming from your friend). You are "deleting" the noise of the restaurant. How does our mind do this? Perhaps (just my thought) the "noise" of the restaurant can be described by a system of complex equations that are chaotic in nature. That way our minds, attuned to this pattern, can filter out the "organized chaos" of the background. Similarly, ouir minds may filter out the "irrelevant" visual field by some complex system of chaos-based mathematics. But what happens when the pattern is interrupted and the equations "change"? If, in our example, a waiter drops a tray full of glasses, there is a loud noise. This is called perturbing the system. Here there is a change in the system - a boundary is created. Your mind goes from focusing on your friend to the loud noise - to see if there is a concern, threat or problem that your mind must refocus on. (Humans are innately afraid of only two things - falling and loud noises.) How does the mind do that? We move rapidly from order (the conversation) to disorder (the loud noise) to order (focusing on what has happened, processing it and taking action or not taking action). In this bit of mental gymnastics, I believe what Feigenbaum suggested is that our minds operate in a fasion that could be described by chaos mathematics - that is using non-linear equations with underlying scaling order. Or, at the very least, we inherently recognize the chaotic pattern and are able to process it subconsciouly. Oy. That's enough for now. What a topic for a pirate site, eh? Once I sort it out a bit, I'll annoy you further with thoughts on free will from a group headed by Robert Stetson Shaw. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 Uhhhhhhhh... (brain static) Uhhhhhhhh... (more brain static) Og like chaos. Chaos good. OOooh! Wait!!! Brainnnnnnnnssss... Brainnnnnnssssss... Interesting stuff. Its been awhile since I've read up on the subject of the human mind. Suffice to say, I'm not convinced the brain alone is the seat of human consciousness. (And then, Blackjohn's little brain went spark, and when the dust cleared, there sat a whacky idea.) Could it be that we are, each one of us, like a grain of sand on a beach? We see one another as other grains of sand, but at another scale, we function as a unit? My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 6, 2005 Author Share Posted October 6, 2005 I have read some mystical (primarily cicumstantial and dominated by hearsay) stuff about cerebral interconnectedness. The universal mind and all that. I can's say I'm personally convinced. Neither do I dismiss it out of hand. I tend to look to myself to resolve matter for myself, so I mostly eschew the idea until more positive proof is presented to me. This theory neither embraces nor discards the notion. We had a guy who ran around his room in one of the haunted houses shouting "Braaaaains! Braaaaains!" for three straight weeks. Imitating some zombie movie I was lead to understand. Three. Straight. Weeks. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 I went out to commune with "the gods." This is what I came back with. Mysticism/Science The universe is a metal box. The lid screwed tightly in place. Half the screws are straight-slot, the other philips head. The only way to open the box is to use each. It doesn't change the fact that once you open the box there's nothing inside. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 6, 2005 Author Share Posted October 6, 2005 Your theory is loads simpler than mine. At least there's no torx nuts. Who the hell has torx fittings? Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tishsparrow Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa...... what if we live on a giant sims game? and we all are at the mercy of a giant computer nerd? there is a kid in my school who sincerely believes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody_Mary_Bonney Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa...... what if we live on a giant sims game? and we all are at the mercy of a giant computer nerd? there is a kid in my school who sincerely believes this. hey i've thought about it But why is the rum gone? Save a horse ride a cowboy! Take me away and take me farther, suround me now and hold me like holy My toes are getting pruney Also my head is round that window is square.... My name is Micheal J Kabous and i eat babies! Your toast has been burned and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 6, 2005 Author Share Posted October 6, 2005 Actually, I have suspected that you may all be figments of my imagination. Except posts occured when I was gone and before I was here; something I can't quite explain. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa...... what if we live on a giant sims game? and we all are at the mercy of a giant computer nerd? there is a kid in my school who sincerely believes this. (Don't take this as an attack on any religion, it's meant to illustrate a point.) I bet you'll also find kids who sincerely believe there was this guy 2000+ years ago who was crucified until he was dead, and then after a couple days in a cave, was resurrected. If you look around long enough you'll also find some kid who believes in a pantheon of gods, dharma, karma, and all that jazz. Having a belief in and of itself isn't necessarily harmful. Being dogmatic about it, believing yours is the one true way, is. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Your theory is loads simpler than mine. At least there's no torx nuts. Who the hell has torx fittings? Eh... doesn't make it any better, or any more correct, or incorrect... And hey, maybe there are torx nuts!!! Maybe that's the key to my "eternal salvation"! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Actually, I have suspected that you may all be figments of my imagination. Except posts occured when I was gone and before I was here; something I can't quite explain. So I wonder where this is going next? Plato's Cave? The bicameral mind? My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pew Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 At least there's no torx nuts. Who the hell has torx fittings? Goddamn Jeeps. , Skull and Quill Society , The Watch Dog "We are 21st Century people who play a game of dress-up and who spend a lot of time pissing and moaning about the rules of the game and whether other people are playing fair." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not so young jim hawkins Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Even more obscure, clutch bits. The hourglass looking ones. I suspect they're what keep wormholes closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 7, 2005 Author Share Posted October 7, 2005 Chee, John! I had to look both of those things up! I suspect I'm missing some of your meaning, but here we go... I disagree with what I just quickly read on Plato's Cave. The names we assign to things are just constructs to simplify thinking. We could assign new names to the the shadow of the book, (well, we do - "shadow") and even for each different actual book (well, and we do that too - the title), but it's easier to simplify the category of printed, bound matter to the idea of "book" and reflections (shadows, etc.) of that matter to "book" as well. We could be being fooled by Plato's Puppets (which would be a grand name for an alternative band), but most of the time we would probably be justified in identifying the shadow as "book," even if, in the most rigorous meaning of the word, we were wrong. Each book is inherently different on the microscopic level, so technically each should be labelled (since we're labelling) differently according to what I glean from the Plato's Cave argument. Then again how similar are materials on the atomic or subatomic level? (I don't know the answer to this.) I do know that most things a made up primarily of empty space at that level. I wonder what percentage is different between one book and another? Then the wheels fall of the train of thought... When I was deeply involved in training and success principles, I came across an idea I absolutely love: perception. If I were ever to write a success principle book, it would be about perception. Everything is perception. You "hate" something? That is only your perception of an object acted upon by your perception of past experiences with that thing. You see a book? That is only your perception based on past mental linkages and cultural memes. You are unhappy because your cat died? That is just your perception of an event based on past perceptions of the thing you have perceived as "cat" - hell, your neighbor may be happy that your cat died - he/she perceives it differently in his/her mind. Everything is as you perceive it and perception occurs only within the confines of your mind. Even the culturally-held memes are just conventions that you have agreed to buy into - based (presumably) upon your perception that they are good. However, if we were not able to simplify the world, the information overload would be crippling. Our minds must find patterns to simplify the world. Perhaps the simplification is chaotic in nature. Perhaps I am babbling. As for the bicameral mind... The gods of the pyracy board are now ordering me to go get an egg and cheese croissant at BK. I would think the gods were trying to kill me, except, of course, I don't think. I obey the gods. (I don't quite know what to make of the bicameral mind theory. Half of me wants to read Jaynes book, the other half wants to discard it as arbitrary fiddle-faddle. The third half wants an egg and cheese croissant.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Actually, I have suspected that you may all be figments of my imagination. Except posts occured when I was gone and before I was here; something I can't quite explain. The Pyracy Pub as an extension of "Schrodinger's Cat"? Yo ho ho! Or does nobody actually say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 7, 2005 Author Share Posted October 7, 2005 Ah, Schrodinger's poor abused cat. (I suppose I asked for that.) However (while we're making quantum metaphor cocktails), there is no cat. Einstein said so. ______________________ "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat." - Albert Einstein Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 7, 2005 Author Share Posted October 7, 2005 Even more obscure, clutch bits. The hourglass looking ones. I suspect they're what keep wormholes closed. What the heck is a clutch bit? Oh my...maybe that's why I could never get that stupid Delorean running properly. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 8, 2005 Author Share Posted October 8, 2005 Back into the realm of chaos theory and the organization of the mind. Along came Robert Stetson Shaw and his group of cronies - called the Dynamic Systems Collective or the Chaos Cabal ( ). They had "discovered" the chaos state using some fairly simple simulataneous systems of equations and an analog computer. Like kids with a new toy, they began to see chaotic systems in everything including flapping flags, dripping faucets, tumbling leaves and even the tree that sprouted the leaf. One of the members, Doyne Farmer, made this provocative statement: "On a philosophical level, [chaos theory] struck me as an operational way to define free will, in a way that allowed you to reconcile free will with determinism. The system is deterministic, but you can't say what it's going to do next. At the same time, I'd always felt that important problems in the world had to do with the creation of organization, in life or intelligence." Wow! I love this statement. I don't know if it's true or not, but it makes more sense than anything I've heard about the issue of free will vs. determinism. I think we've even discussed this issue on the forum - are we self-guided and able to choose our path or are we destined to follow some pattern codified in our minds? Does our make-up somehow guide our decision-making process? Farmer suggests, then, that our minds operate in a chaotic fashion ( ), where determinism gives way to chaotic free will. He is telling us that chaos theory - which, as previously noted, indicates that there is order underlying what we perceive as chaos - explains how free will and fate can coexist. The system is deterministic in nature (fated to wind up at the same end point regardless of what happens), but the path is chaotic in that we can't predict the path of the system successfully (the path is free to go whatever way it will in getting to the end point.) This is either silly nonsense or it's a huge idea. It's interesting that this point, which I have been pondering for a week and a half, should be presaged by the concept of the bicameral mind (which is something I am still thinking about, John. I was explaining the concept to another friend of mine named John only last night over several bottles of wine. He suggested that the bicameral mind is still among us. But then, John is a cynic. (And proud of this fact.)) Interestingly, when asked what the problem with the world was, no less than Jonas Salk said that the trouble was that most men today don't think. (As reported by Earl Nightingale.) Nightingale went on to expound upon the idea, saying that many people never get out of the non-thinking "follow the leader" role. He opined that the trouble was that they aren't following a leader at all, they are following other followers. (Hey John! Perhaps we can now explain collective consciousness! ) Anyhow, in the theory of the bicameral mind, there was some point in time where Jaynes suggests that we became self-aware and autonomous. According to him, before that time we were basically non-thinking automatons who did the will of the gods or voices or perhaps even some convoluted instinct (although Jaynes doesn't use this last point to illustrate his theory). The implication is that we could not have free will until we shed our reliance on the gods/voices/instinct and that didn't occur until (I'm guessing) the Age of Enlightenment for Europeon people and much later for more "primitive" people. It's a rather tidy way to explain instinct, really. What if, supposing, free will is instead an artifact of chaos theory at work? We have a system that's going along smoothly (non-chaotic in nature) that suddenly starts to diverge as we choose a different path (chaotic in nature) until it settles back into routine (returning to non-chaotic). This is how chaos appears in most chaotic systems. It goes along linearly for awhile, then it "splits" (called a bifurcation in the graph) and alternates between two points (Two ideas? A choice?). Then it splits again; and again, etc, until it becomes unpredictable and chaotic in nature (free will?). It is neigh impossible to predict where the next point will be on the graph at this point. However, within the chaos are pockets of organization that eventually give way to more chaotic behavior. (Determinism interrupted by free will?) This might also better explain some Jaynes theory - perhaps there was less chaotic mental activity in the past than there is today - but I am more and more inclined to discard Jaynes' idea. There were flashes of non-god driven thinking throughout history which defies his basic premise. His theory suggests that the bi-cameral mind exists up to a point in the history of a people where they discard their gods or instinct or whatever. This doesn't explain the aberrations. (I may still read his book if I can find it at the local library.) Oh that's enough for now. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumba Rue Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 Trust me, my black box of a brain will never be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durty Mick Moon Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 uh........okay, Einstein, I tried reading it, me eyes crossed over so I sez to meself.... "Mick, ye 'ol scalawag, ifin' ye gonna be reading that there kind a wordy stuff ye be needing more drink"....so after a couple o' Jameson's I tried agin.....uh.....damn, okay, meybe I needs another double shot......>hiccup<, 'scuse me.....E=MC2?....ye knows what chaos theory is?....what goes on inside me head tryin' to figure which way's up when I tries to get outta me bed in the morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not so young jim hawkins Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 http://www.lara.com/reviews/screwtypes.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 The one way screw remover! If that wasn't desigined by a couple of quantum mechanics, I don't know what was. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Handed Jill Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Ah - deterministic. Like token ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumba Rue Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 like I really needed to know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Back into the realm of chaos theory and the organization of the mind. I'm going to have to spend some time thinking on this one. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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